Iron Garrison

Printable View

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Aug 28 2013, 09:48 PM
ReallyFat

I agree, but have we not established that these dwarves probably did not come on the direct orders of Dáin? They themselves say that they are from the Iron Hills, which is not under Dáin's command from Erebor (see the Hobbit- Dáin rules there, the dwarves over there belong to him, and any messages that need to be exchanged had to be by raven). I believe that these dwarves probably went of their own whim. There aren't nearly enough to actually reclaim Moria. They also aren't enough to have been missed in battle when they were gone. So I guess that a dwarven expedition was formed months ago in the Iron Hills, before the Nazgûl came to Dáin. They probably also left a little time before Glóin did from Erebor. That means that they would have left before word arrived of Dáin's plight, but being large in numbers, would probably have been behind Glóin's party and arrived at Rivendell after the Fellowship had gone south. Likely they used the same High Pass that Thorin and Co. used in the Hobbit, thus arriving at Rivendell and then making the journey south from there through most of Eregion to Hollin Gate.
Aug 29 2013, 03:12 AM
Radhruin_EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReallyFat

I agree, but have we not established that these dwarves probably did not come on the direct orders of Dáin? They themselves say that they are from the Iron Hills, which is not under Dáin's command from Erebor (see the Hobbit- Dáin rules there, the dwarves over there belong to him, and any messages that need to be exchanged had to be by raven). I believe that these dwarves probably went of their own whim. There aren't nearly enough to actually reclaim Moria. They also aren't enough to have been missed in battle when they were gone. So I guess that a dwarven expedition was formed months ago in the Iron Hills, before the Nazgûl came to Dáin. They probably also left a little time before Glóin did from Erebor. That means that they would have left before word arrived of Dáin's plight, but being large in numbers, would probably have been behind Glóin's party and arrived at Rivendell after the Fellowship had gone south. Likely they used the same High Pass that Thorin and Co. used in the Hobbit, thus arriving at Rivendell and then making the journey south from there through most of Eregion to Hollin Gate.

Either they're too few to matter or they can be 'large in numbers', but not both. That they call themselves the Iron Garrison rather implies there are more than just a few of them, don't you think?

Balin had had to ask Dain's permission to go to Moria in the first place, and Dain had been loath to let him go but eventually relented (something I imagine he'd have since regretted) - so no, I don't buy anyone just doing it on a whim. It also wouldn't take that long to make the trip - Sauron's messenger had first come to Erebor the year before the Council of Elrond. Leaving that aside, if they were on their way by that route but really slowly then Gloin's party would have overtaken them - and didn't so much as stop to say hello, or ask them what they thought they were doing? And leaving that aside as well, when they do turn up at Rivendell and ask for Gloin's counsel, he doesn't just tell them to stop being so foolish and go home because...?
Aug 29 2013, 03:31 AM
BirdofHermes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReallyFat

I agree, but have we not established that these dwarves probably did not come on the direct orders of Dáin? They themselves say that they are from the Iron Hills, which is not under Dáin's command from Erebor (see the Hobbit- Dáin rules there, the dwarves over there belong to him, and any messages that need to be exchanged had to be by raven). I believe that these dwarves probably went of their own whim. There aren't nearly enough to actually reclaim Moria. They also aren't enough to have been missed in battle when they were gone. So I guess that a dwarven expedition was formed months ago in the Iron Hills, before the Nazgûl came to Dáin. They probably also left a little time before Glóin did from Erebor. That means that they would have left before word arrived of Dáin's plight, but being large in numbers, would probably have been behind Glóin's party and arrived at Rivendell after the Fellowship had gone south. Likely they used the same High Pass that Thorin and Co. used in the Hobbit, thus arriving at Rivendell and then making the journey south from there through most of Eregion to Hollin Gate.

Why do you think Iron Hills are not under the command of Dáin? He was still king. He relocated the capitol of his realm after Smaug's and Thorin's deaths (the Iron Hills were Dáin's original home), but he was still King of the Longbeards; the Iron Hills and Thorin's Hall were still his to rule over (and in the game even pay "tribute" or taxes to Erebor).
The Nazgûl came to Erebor a full year before the Ring even left Rivendell. And the Iron Garrison apparently left the Iron Hills (or at least left Erebor if they made a stop there) after Gloin, since they knew he would be in Rivendell.

"My cousin Brogur and I determined to seek Balin within Moria some months ago, but it took many weeks to assemble an expedition of dwarves willing to accompany us. We chose a roundabout way over the mountains so as to speak with Lord Glóin, a close friend of our fathers, about Khazad-dûm.'His words were grim; I do not think he believes that our expedition will succeed. 'It has been too long without a word,' he said to us, 'for Balin son of Fundin to live still within the Mines.' I am beginning to perceive the likelihood of his warning."
- Bósi

So they left fairly recently (less than the "some months ago" and even minus the "many weeks") and would have known about the Nazgûl.
Aug 29 2013, 05:59 AM
ReallyFat
You know what I mean, larger in number than Glóin's party. Perhaps a messenger had not come to the Iron Hills to say that war was gathering. Or maybe they were just around the size of Balin's colony. Either way they would not have needed Dáin's permission to go. The Iron Hills had a seperate establishment. When Thrór went to Erebor after his father and brother were killed, his other brother Grór went to the Iron hills remember? The refugees of Erebor did not even go to the Iron Hills to seek shelter. They were a seperate kingdom, not under the King under the Mountain. Call them an earldom if you wish. Dáin was under his own rights as to whether his warriors would go into Moria before. He still didn't go, not even though Thráin asked him. It seems that whoever he left back in the Iron Hills had their own charge over the dwarves there. It was simply too far away for Dáin to govern from Erebor. The Dwarves are much more sparse even than the Elves, let alone Men. They cannot have such large kingdoms.

This, then, is my explanation.
1. The Iron Garrison leave the Iron hills a few days before Glóin leaves Erebor. They have no warning that war is gathering. They know a Nazgûl came, but that's it. They don't even know it's a wraith. They think it's just a messenger
2. Glóin's party, being smaller, passes through Mirkwood and into the land of the Beornings. Iron Garrison is still not at Mirkwood yet.
3. Bósi and Brogur's party arrives at Mirkwood a few days after Glóin has departed. They learn from the Elves of Glóin going to Moria and decide to make for the High Pass rather than Nanduhirion OR they instead go around Mirkwood via the foothills of the Grey Mountains. On their road south to Nanduihirion, they learn from the Beornings of Glóin's passing. They make for the High Pass.
4. They arrive in Rivendell and receive a lecture from Glóin about doing something so ridiculous, then learn from Elrond's elves (the ones he sent south after the Company) that the pool has been formed, the trees have been uprooted, and that the doors have been forced. They journey south to check it out.
5. They decide to enter Moria directly from there since it makes no sense to go all the way around the mountains again to the Dimrill Gate.
How does that sound?
Aug 29 2013, 08:41 AM
Egorvlad

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReallyFat

How does that sound?

Well, that sounds like a company of complete morons set out on this quest. But it's the first explanation that actually makes sense. Gratz. :)
Aug 29 2013, 09:32 AM
BirdofHermes
Quote:

Originally Posted by ReallyFat

You know what I mean, larger in number than Glóin's party. Perhaps a messenger had not come to the Iron Hills to say that war was gathering.

That is not impossible but is highly unlikely. When the capitol of your kingdom is threatened with war, you tend to send word to all your colonies as well, especially when they're so closeby.

Quote:

Either way they would not have needed Dáin's permission to go. The Iron Hills had a seperate establishment.

Just like in your previous post you are making wild assumptions here that do not fit with the evidence.
The Iron Hills did not have any known seperate establishment that did not answer to the King of Durin's Folk. In fact it's not even known if the Iron Hills were still in use at that time. But let's pretend for argument's sake that the Iron Hills were still inhabited.
Dáin ruled over the Iron Hills as a Lord even before he became a King. Do you think he'd just *give away* his biggest colony after becoming king? No.
Sure, he likely gave stewardship or lordship to a prominent family member (one of his sons perhaps) if he decided to keep the Iron Hills populated, but he wouldn't just hand a quarter of his kingdom to someone. Two Longbeard Kings are a BIG no-no.
Much like how colonies in our own history (and up to this day even) are maintained, Dáin is still the boss. If anything major is planned, his permission/blessing would undoubtedly be required.

Quote:

When Thrór went to Erebor after his father and brother were killed, his other brother Grór went to the Iron hills remember?

I remember, but do you? That is the reason Dáin was Lord of the Iron Hills in the first place, he was Grór's grandson. Thrór and Grór decided to split up the task of rebuilding a home: Thrór being the eldest became the King and ruled from Erebor while the younger brother Grór became a Lord and ruled the Iron Hills.

Quote:

The refugees of Erebor did not even go to the Iron Hills to seek shelter. They were a seperate kingdom, not under the King under the Mountain.

The Iron Hills were clearly not a kingdom, since they had no king. The Iron Hills were ruled instead by Lords (that were cousins of the King). But when the King demanded support the Iron Hills answered. Again, as still happens today with colonies.
Exactly why the refugees of Erebor did not go the Iron Hills is unknown. A number of hypothetical reasons have been given over the decades;
- The Iron Hills were litte more than a mining colony which could not support Erebor's exodus (as its name suggests, it was mostly iron that was found there, and it was initially just a mining settlement for the Grey Mountains' Dwarves to come mine).
- Thráin did not want to attract attention of it to Smaug who was so nearby. Even though the colony was not rich, a sufficient number of Dwarves gathering there could attract Smaug's attention.
- Some did flee to the Iron Hills. Just not all. The survivors scattered in smaller bands.
- With a dragon in the sky, going east over an open plain in full view for 100 miles is not a great idea. Better to go into the forest and out of sight.

Quote:

Call them an earldom if you wish.

Exactly! Now you're getting it. They ruled in the king's name, but still under the king. Just like earls, dukes, barons, and so on.

Quote:

Dáin was under his own rights as to whether his warriors would go into Moria before. He still didn't go, not even though Thráin asked him.

That is quite different than a regular king/lord relationship or a regular situation; Dáin was the only one who had looked into Moria and he had seen Durin's Bane. When he explained that to his cousin Thráin after the latter asked Dáin to enter Moria, Thráin accepted it.

"Then Thráin turned to Dáin, and said: 'But surely my own kin will not desert me?'
'No,' said Dáin. 'You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again.
But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'
So it was that after Azanulbizar the Dwarves dispersed again."

Quote:

It seems that whoever he left back in the Iron Hills had their own charge over the dwarves there. It was simply too far away for Dáin to govern from Erebor.

Um, no. It was pretty close. Heck even today countries still maintain colonies on the other side of the planet. The distance between Erebor and the Iron Hills is little compared to that, only roughly 120 miles.

Quote:

The Dwarves are much more sparse even than the Elves, let alone Men. They cannot have such large kingdoms.

This doesn't make sense. If you say Dwarves don't have the numbers to have a large kingdom of Erebor+Iron hills, then logically they don't have numbers to have 2 seperate kingdoms of Erebor & Iron Hills either.
Quote:
This, then, is my explanation.

The Iron Garrison leave the Iron hills a few days before Glóin leaves Erebor. They have no warning that war is gathering. They know a Nazgûl came, but that's it. They don't even know it's a wraith. They think it's just a messenger
Glóin's party, being smaller, passes through Mirkwood and into the land of the Beornings. Iron Garrison is still not at Mirkwood yet.
Bósi and Brogur's party arrives at Mirkwood a few days after Glóin has departed. They learn from the Elves of Glóin going to Moria and decide to make for the High Pass rather than Nanduhirion OR they instead go around Mirkwood via the foothills of the Grey Mountains. On their road south to Nanduihirion, they learn from the Beornings of Glóin's passing. They make for the High Pass.
They arrive in Rivendell and receive a lecture from Glóin about doing something so ridiculous, then learn from Elrond's elves (the ones he sent south after the Company) that the pool has been formed, the trees have been uprooted, and that the doors have been forced. They journey south to check it out.
They decide to enter Moria directly from there since it makes no sense to go all the way around the mountains again to the Dimrill Gate.

How does that sound?
A few things wrong with that.
- Glóin doesn't go to Moria.
- They are not exactly friends with the Mirkwood Elves. Not at all, as evidenced by Gimli and Glóin.
- They didn't know about the pool, or the trees, or the sealed door. When they arrive they are surprised by all of it as indicated by the quest dialogues. There are even quests where you make tools to clear everything away because they didn't bring any; they were expecting a Dwarf door in a wall, nothing more. They didn't equip for clearing rubble or passing through water (their carts get stuck and they have no mining picks with them).

The rest is just speculation with a lot of big assumptions.

In future please find evidence first and draw conclusions from it. Don't speculate and then find scraps of evidence to support it whilst ignoring the rest.
Aug 29 2013, 11:59 AM
ReallyFat

Quote:

That is not impossible but is highly unlikely. When the capitol of your kingdom is threatened with war, you tend to send word to all your colonies as well, especially when they're so closeby.

I said that they would have left BEFORE Glóin's party left Erebor, since it would have made no sense for them to leave had that not been the case.

Quote:

The Iron Hills did not have any known seperate establishment that did not answer to the King of Durin's Folk.

I said, "call them an Earldom if you wish". They still retain their own government which SHOULD answer to the King, but which does NOT need to ask the Kings permission for their internal affairs.

Quote:

In fact it's not even known if the Iron Hills were still in use at that time. But let's pretend for argument's sake that the Iron Hills were still inhabited.

The game assumes they are, so we should too. We are discussing in-game stuff here.

Quote:

Dáin ruled over the Iron Hills as a Lord even before he became a King. Do you think he'd just *give away* his biggest colony after becoming king? No.
Sure, he likely gave stewardship or lordship to a prominent family member (one of his sons perhaps) if he decided to keep the Iron Hills populated, but he wouldn't just hand a quarter of his kingdom to someone. Two Longbeard Kings are a BIG no-no.

Stewardship, Lordship, it gives them the right to arrange their own expedition right? Once again, I suggest you refer lower down, where I said they would be an Earldom rather than a kingdom.

Quote:

Much like how colonies in our own history (and up to this day even) are maintained, Dáin is still the boss. If anything major is planned, his permission/blessing would undoubtedly be required.

An expedition of just around two hundred dwarves to Moria is definitely not a matter that would have required Dáin's attention, especially since he was so worried about war with Mordor anyway.

Quote:

I remember, but do you? That is the reason Dáin was Lord of the Iron Hills in the first place, he was Grór's grandson. Thrór and Grór decided to split up the task of rebuilding a home: Thrór being the eldest became the King and ruled from Erebor while the younger brother Grór became a Lord and ruled the Iron Hills.

I am well aware of that, and I have not said anything to the contrary, so I don't quite get your point. The only reason I mentioned that was to show that the dwarves of the Iron Hills had their own government that did not need to inform or ask permission of the Longbeard King for whatever they wanted to do. It was only ever recorded that they answered to the King, in facy, when they were summoned for war.

Quote:

The Iron Hills were clearly not a kingdom, since they had no king. The Iron Hills were ruled instead by Lords (that were cousins of the King). But when the King demanded support the Iron Hills answered. Again, as still happens today with colonies.

Well, they had their own government that did not need to consult with the King and is only ever recorded answering to him when he summoned them for War.

Quote:

Exactly why the refugees of Erebor did not go the Iron Hills is unknown. A number of hypothetical reasons have been given over the decades;
- The Iron Hills were litte more than a mining colony which could not support Erebor's exodus (as its name suggests, it was mostly iron that was found there, and it was initially just a mining settlement for the Grey Mountains' Dwarves to come mine).
- Thráin did not want to attract attention of it to Smaug who was so nearby. Even though the colony was not rich, a sufficient number of Dwarves gathering there could attract Smaug's attention.
- Some did flee to the Iron Hills. Just not all. The survivors scattered in smaller bands.
- With a dragon in the sky, going east over an open plain in full view for 100 miles is not a great idea. Better to go into the forest and out of sight.

Contrary to what you may have seen in the movie, not all that many dwarves escaped from the fall of Erebor. The only two dwarves that made it out alive were Thrór and Thráin. Thorin says that he was out with his friends, on some sort of adventure, which is why they did not die. Him, Balin, a few other dwarves? Just how many do you think were outside? and no one escaped apart from the King and his son, Thorin says that they fled out their great gate, but the dragon was waiting for them, and none escaped that way. So I find it ridiculous to say that the Iron Hills could not have supported around twenty or so dwarves fleeing there. It is also impossible to say that they would have attracted attention, unless you think that twenty dwarves going east is a 'sufficient number of Dwarves gathering there'. Nor was the Dragon in the sky- he entered Erebor and piled up the gold there and lay on it for a bed. Later he would come out at night and raid Dale and carry away people to eat. He did not kill them all in one go. Nor did he sack Esgaroth. He didn't destroy everything he laid eyes on. Why would he attack a party of dwarves that he would barely be able to see anyway?

Quote:

Um, no. It was pretty close. Heck even today countries still maintain colonies on the other side of the planet. The distance between Erebor and the Iron Hills is little compared to that, only roughly 120 miles.

You know, they didn't have jets and email and video conferencing. A colony could not be under the rule of a King so far away, their numbers simply did not permit it! They did not have villages and towns every 30 or so miles between them! You may think that such a thing could work in Gondor, or Rohan, where there are enough people to have large numbers of settlements in proxximity to each other. But not for the dwarves. That was a why a Lord ruled in the first place.

Quote:

- Glóin doesn't go to Moria.

I meant to write Rivendell.

Quote:

- They are not exactly friends with the Mirkwood Elves. Not at all, as evidenced by Gimli and Glóin.

Did I not mention the alternate path around Mirkwood? They'd still have met the Beornings.

Quote:

- They didn't know about the pool, or the trees, or the sealed door. When they arrive they are surprised by all of it as indicated by the quest dialogues. There are even quests where you make tools to clear everything away because they didn't bring any; they were expecting a Dwarf door in a wall, nothing more. They didn't equip for clearing rubble or passing through water (their carts get stuck and they have no mining picks with them).

They actually had picks, there is a whole quest where we have to carry them over. Perhaps they didn't know of the river or stuff if Elrond hadn't told them, but there could be a different reason for them going through the Hollin Gate: the fact that they may not have wished to cross the mountains yet again to go through the Dimrill Gate.

If you think that is so illogical, do you have an alternate explanation? These reasons may seem illogical to you - and they shouldn't - but if they do, then can you think of a more logical explanation?
Aug 29 2013, 01:07 PM
Radhruin_EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReallyFat

I said that they would have left BEFORE Glóin's party left Erebor, since it would have made no sense for them to leave had that not been the case.

It's been pointed out to you twice now that that does not fit the scenario.

Quote:

I said, "call them an Earldom if you wish". They still retain their own government which SHOULD answer to the King, but which does NOT need to ask the Kings permission for their internal affairs.

Only up to a certain point (i.e. whatever rights the king had delegated to the lord, such as local taxation), as the lord would still hold his lands from the king rather than in his own right and owe him military service when needed. Typically under that sort of arrangement the lord had to be able to guarantee being able to field a certain number of warriors on demand. That's what lords are for. by origin: 'those who fight', the warrior elite who support the king.

Quote:

Stewardship, Lordship, it gives them the right to arrange their own expedition right? Once again, I suggest you refer lower down, where I said they would be an Earldom rather than a kingdom.

No, it would not - taking a load of warriors out of the Iron Hills and sending them somewhere hundreds of miles away would likely leave the lord unable to fulfil his obligations to Dain for the defence of the kingdom, so he'd have to ask. Then there's the question of the cost, military expeditions are hellish expensive especially if they're taking place at such distance. Do remember how far it is from Erebor and the Iron Hills to Moria! How exactly is the putative lord of the Iron Hills supposed to be paying for all this?

Quote:

An expedition of just around two hundred dwarves to Moria is definitely not a matter that would have required Dáin's attention, especially since he was so worried about war with Mordor anyway.

Oh, 'only' two hundred Dwarves of fighting age when the Dwarves weren't so very many any more (what with the losses at Erebor and after, the terrible losses in the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs - which is clearly portrayed as a Pyrrhic victory more worthy of lament than anything else, and yet more at the Battle of Five Armies).

Quote:

I am well aware of that, and I have not said anything to the contrary, so I don't quite get your point. The only reason I mentioned that was to show that the dwarves of the Iron Hills had their own government that did not need to inform or ask permission of the Longbeard King for whatever they wanted to do. It was only ever recorded that they answered to the King, in facy, when they were summoned for war.

Is Dain supposed to be the king or not? Of course they'd answer to him, that's what being king is all about.

Quote:

If you think that is so illogical, do you have an alternate explanation? These reasons may seem illogical to you - and they shouldn't - but if they do, then can you think of a more logical explanation?

There doesn't have to be a logical explanation because it's a wholly contrived scenario intended for a game. That's the point, it doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. There's no reason why it should, any more than (say) it did for PJ having the Elves turn up at Helm's Deep. He left out the reasons why the Elves were in no position to do that, and Turbine have left out the reasons why the Dwarves were in no position to launch massive expeditions.
Aug 29 2013, 05:05 PM
BirdofHermes

Thankfully Rad answered most of these, saves me some time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReallyFat

Well, they had their own government that did not need to consult with the King and is only ever recorded answering to him when he summoned them for War.

Why do you think that? Any source?

Quote:

Contrary to what you may have seen in the movie, not all that many dwarves escaped from the fall of Erebor. The only two dwarves that made it out alive were Thrór and Thráin. Thorin says that he was out with his friends, on some sort of adventure, which is why they did not die. Him, Balin, a few other dwarves? Just how many do you think were outside? and no one escaped apart from the King and his son, Thorin says that they fled out their great gate, but the dragon was waiting for them, and none escaped that way. So I find it ridiculous to say that the Iron Hills could not have supported around twenty or so dwarves fleeing there. It is also impossible to say that they would have attracted attention, unless you think that twenty dwarves going east is a 'sufficient number of Dwarves gathering there'.

You're quite right. My apologies.

Quote:

You know, they didn't have jets and email and video conferencing. A colony could not be under the rule of a King so far away, their numbers simply did not permit it! They did not have villages and towns every 30 or so miles between them!

Neither did we back when colonies were formed. Do you think the Americas, Africa, Australia, and South-east Asia had jets or email back in the 16th to19th century? Or villages and towns between them?
Thing is, you don't need numbers when your colony is NOT a land that belonged to someone. Keeping numbers of your 'own' (military) in colonies is required to keep peace, enforce laws and break any possible rebellions. The Iron Hills were empty as far as we know when Dwarves settled there. So they did not require any numbers to keep peace. The only thing they required was someone to hold up the laws and lead in the king's name, in this case the king's cousin.

Quote:

You may think that such a thing could work in Gondor, or Rohan, where there are enough people to have large numbers of settlements in proxximity to each other. But not for the dwarves. That was a why a Lord ruled in the first place.

See above.

Quote:

I meant to write Rivendell.

Oh I see.

Quote:

Did I not mention the alternate path around Mirkwood? They'd still have met the Beornings.

Or they could have just gone through Mirkwood. There's a road. They'd just have to watch out for DG.

Quote:

They actually had picks, there is a whole quest where we have to carry them over. Perhaps they didn't know of the river or stuff if Elrond hadn't told them, but there could be a different reason for them going through the Hollin Gate: the fact that they may not have wished to cross the mountains yet again to go through the Dimrill Gate.

1. They only had picks BECAUSE WE MADE THEM IN A PREVIOUS QUEST. They first complain they didn't bring picks, so they send us adventurers out to collect materials to make them on the spot (and have the gall to complain about the quality when we're finished). THEN we carry them over to the workers.
2. What did Elrond tell them?
3. Obviously they didn't want to go back over the mountans to go through the Dimrill Gate, they were on the west side now. Why make the effort, after all. But what's your point?

Quote:

If you think that is so illogical, do you have an alternate explanation? These reasons may seem illogical to you - and they shouldn't - but if they do, then can you think of a more logical explanation?

Several, but none fully logical. Turbine just wrote it badly. The Dwarves are portrayed as either idiots, traitors or cowards in every logical scenario. Sometimes all three at once.
Heck just look at how they deal with wanting to speak to Glóin.
"Let's ask his advice about this whole reclaiming business. I heard he's at Rivendell."
"Yes Lord Brogur, I shall immediately send some messengers over the High Pass."
"Nonsense, let's take the entire Garrison there."
"My Lord?...but...it's nearly 100 miles north of here...and there are hundreds of us. Heavily burdened with carts and equipment and stuff...it will take us weeks if not months."
"Yes?"
"And the High Pass is...ahem, a high mountain pass covered in snow with frequent avelanches and blizzards..."
"And?"
"...
...right away, my Lord...."
Aug 29 2013, 05:38 PM
ReallyFat

Quote:

Why do you think that? Any source?

Well, I am kind of only talking about source here. In all the mythos, the only time the dwarves from elswhere have ever answered is when they were called for war. Twice, in fact. Once by Thráin, to avenge Thrór, the other by Thorin, to protect Erebor from the Elves and Lake-men. They aren't reported having answered to the King anywhere else (I mean, they may have done so, but not in any sources we have)

Quote:

Neither did we back when colonies were formed. Do you think the Americas, Africa, Australia, and South-east Asia had jets or email back in the 16th to19th century? Or villages and towns between them?
Thing is, you don't need numbers when your colony is NOT a land that belonged to someone. Keeping numbers of your 'own' (military) in colonies is required to keep peace, enforce laws and break any possible rebellions. The Iron Hills were empty as far as we know when Dwarves settled there. So they did not require any numbers to keep peace. The only thing they required was someone to hold up the laws and lead in the king's name, in this case the king's cousin.

Alright, fair point. I understand.

Quote:

Or they could have just gone through Mirkwood. There's a road. They'd just have to watch out for DG.

But both roads are quite far north of DG right?

Quote:

What did Elrond tell them?

Rather, what did Elrond NOT tell them. I mean that since they were ill-equipped to enter into Moria what with all the new conditions at the gate, Elrond must obviously have not told them that there are problems with doing that.

Quote:

3. Obviously they didn't want to go back over the mountans to go through the Dimrill Gate, they were on the west side now. Why make the effort, after all. But what's your point?

Just that even if they did not take the road for investigation's sake, they would have taken it for ease.

Quote:

Several, but none fully logical. Turbine just wrote it badly. The Dwarves are portrayed as either idiots, traitors or cowards in every logical scenario. Sometimes all three at once.
Heck just look at how they deal with wanting to speak to Glóin.
"Let's ask his advice about this whole reclaiming business. I heard he's at Rivendell."
"Yes Lord Brogur, I shall immediately send some messengers over the High Pass."
"Nonsense, let's take the entire Garrison there."
"My Lord?...but...it's nearly 100 miles north of here...and there are hundreds of us. Heavily burdened with carts and equipment and stuff...it will take us weeks if not months."
"Yes?"
"And the High Pass is...ahem, a high mountain pass covered in snow with frequent avelanches and blizzards..."
"And?"
"...right away, my Lord...."

I heartily agree with them being idiots. Can't think much of cowardly dwarves (after all, they did face down Glaurung) or traitorous dwarves (except for Mîm, but he was a b**** anyway), but they were probably rather stupid. In fact, make that very stupid. Especially those Greyhammers that come with us to exchange Bori. "I want you to go and kill a single orc in every region of Middle-earth you have access to while I sit here filing my toenails. Thus shall honour be brought to our house".
Aug 29 2013, 05:54 PM
BirdofHermes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReallyFat

Well, I am kind of only talking about source here. In all the mythos, the only time the dwarves from elswhere have ever answered is when they were called for war. Twice, in fact. Once by Thráin, to avenge Thrór, the other by Thorin, to protect Erebor from the Elves and Lake-men. They aren't reported having answered to the King anywhere else (I mean, they may have done so, but not in any sources we have)

I understand, but there being a king already infers that they have to answer to him. That's the point of having a king; you report, you listen, you obey.

Quote:

But both roads are quite far north of DG right?

Yes.
But seeing that Sauron attacked Thranduil a few weeks/months later, there's no telling if perhaps he already had spies or military forces encamped near the road. I imagine the Dwarves would be cautious in Mirkwood in the best of situations (it's not a nice place to be), but extra-so if they had heard any rumours of Dol Guldur being occupied again.

Quote:

Rather, what did Elrond NOT tell them. I mean that since they were ill-equipped to enter into Moria what with all the new conditions at the gate, Elrond must obviously have not told them that there are problems with doing that.

It's more likely Elrond didn't know, or even that it hadn't happened when they left Rivendell. After all, it happened relatively recently.

Quote:

Just that even if they did not take the road for investigation's sake, they would have taken it for ease.

Precisely. I don't even think investigation was ever a goal for them, they assumed it would just sit there.

Quote:

I heartily agree with them being idiots. Can't think much of cowardly dwarves (after all, they did face down Glaurung) or traitorous dwarves (except for Mîm, but he was a b**** anyway), but they were probably rather stupid. In fact, make that very stupid. Especially those Greyhammers that come with us to exchange Bori. "I want you to go and kill a single orc in every region of Middle-earth you have access to while I sit here filing my toenails. Thus shall honour be brought to our house".

Unfortunately Turbine has a tendency to make Free Peoples NPCs very stupid. Just look at the Grey Company and their "I can't brain good" demeanor. I guess it's to make us players feel smart about ourselves just because we can put 1 and 1 together when NPCs cannot.

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page