My very first sentence in this thread:
Originally Posted by Glenwin
As for my "hate" - I've felt hate perhaps once in my life, and that was 17 years ago. I certainly haven't "turn[ed] against" you, your kin or the whole music community, which I clearly stated (emphasis added):
Originally Posted by Lestache
Originally Posted by Lestache
I'm sorry that your kin scolded you. Hopefully those that did so will apologize to you if they feel remorse for having done so.
Originally Posted by Glenwin
I'm sorry that I didn't add another, "I'm happy for you," in my second post - I probably should have.
I'm sorry that you're feeling like quitting, but I won't take responsibility for it. I brought up an issue of concern and tried to be clear about why it concerned me (moreso in my second post than the first, admittedly). I made it clear (but apparently not clear enough) that my issue wasn't with you. I didn't launch into hyperbole, make idle threats, or resort to name-calling or disparaging of anyone. I addressed the facts that were available to me and posed the question, "Why?"
What you refer to as "stupid and uninformed assumptions" others might call inferences. For that matter, I'm not even sure which "stupid and uninformed assumptions" you're talking about - the idea that you were in direct contact with someone within Turbine, which you confirmed?
If you want to place the blame on me for your decision to leave the game, that's your right. I think that it's misplaced, but your emotions aren't mine to dictate - only you can control them.
As for me, the person in the mirror and I will be just fine with each other, although perhaps I'll be slightly sad that someone for whom I have zero animosity apparently wishes me ill.
Every time I read your blog, Amorey, I see beauty of mind, wisdom, kindness and joy of life. I see wonderful pictures, drawn by you, bold plans turned into reality. You, Amorey, and many others that I am lucky to be friends with are who I will keep in my heart. These friendships will never cease to exist and I very much wish that we stay in contact somehow. I want to see a picture of you in your new house and in your wonderful Hobbit garden. I really do.
It is this what I want in my life and not the &&&& I have to deal with in this forum where you can say what you want and it will be turned into a weapon against you. But I am not here to teach people lessons in life. Everyone must be allowed to be whoever they want to be. I am sure I will be called a drama kid. And maybe people are glad to see me leave.
All I can say is that I love the music system. I love the many events I have seen in this game and which I will never see again in any other game out there. This game is unique but it also is fragile and so am I. I don't want to be hard as stone and be proud to withstand any attack that I am confronted with. I must be able to be who I am just as everyone else. I just don't see room for that here.
I still have the books and the movies and my imagination. For me this is all I need to love Tolkiens work if people can't accept me here.
You have a generous heart that asks for nothing in return. You always put your best foot forward when it comes to the music and the bands and everything!
Whatever you decide, I will respect you, good Flo. But if you go - you better know that I will miss you and so will Kaerri. *big hobbit hugs for you*
Honor and love,
Gori a.k.a. Dannigan
I'd like to clear the air a little here about "special treatment" to the Lonely Mountain Band about the music bug bugs, and also give Floradine a little cover here, because I can see she's taken a lot of heat over the subject.
Each year at Weatherstock I have some coordination with Turbine. That coordination is not very tight, usually along the lines of "I'm planning on having the event on such-and-such date" and "I expect about XXX number of players to show up" and "We are planning on using /regional, is that ok, and can you communicate that to GMs?" In the last years, Turbine has stepped up their game in supporting player run events, and have handed out some goodies for these things. For instance, I now have the in-game title, "The Sociable" due to volunteering to help Kiralynn with her event, "The Spring Racing Carnival." Last year, Celestrata provided us with some codes for Perlino mounts and cloaks to hand out to the winning bands--it's a better prize for visiting bands than the Landroval-based gold we normally give out. I don't get whispers from GMs during the event. In fact, I don't get much communication at all, and I try to make the most of the few messages we do exchange.
This year for Weatherstock was like others, in that I exchanged a handful of messages with Turbine staff--a conversation that was started from the in-real-life meetup in Orlando. In the middle of this exchange, the U11 music bug popped up. As you might expect, I brought this up. The bug could ruin the entire event--a very public failure for everyone involved. I did not ever say--fix this bug! Instead, I asked if I could get some idea about the feasibility of a fix before Weatherstock and asked if we could get a public statement as to whether it was actively being worked on. Based on the response (which I cannot share, but it did not go into specifics) I decided that it was safest to reschedule Weatherstock, and to encourage the community to feed Turbine as much meaningful data as possible to assist in getting to the bottom of the problem.
My own opinion is that bugs such as the launcher, broken instances, and core gameplay all take precedence over something important to a minority of players like the music system. I believe this opinion is shared by the majority of the playerbase, and by Turbine themselves. My rescheduling was based entirely on the belief that 60 days is more likely to get a bug fixed than 30 days. I manage some projects in a technical field, and I know how long it takes to go from bug report to solution rolled out. And the window I rescheduled to is based mostly on my own availability in July--I'm working with event staff and bands to find the very best date. I am not privy to any information other than what has been publicly acknowledged by Turbine--they are aware of the problem and will provide a fix as soon as they can get to it. I expect some overworked engineer will spend overtime because they'd like to see hobbits playing music in the largest concert in Middle Earth.
I'm very aware of the position of the Lonely Mountain Band in our community. We hold a number of high profile events, have a number of very vocal and active players, participate often in LOTRO-centric news and podcasts. Because of this, I'm also very careful to maintain an appearance of propriety. I do not want to get special treatment--I want to provide special events. I want our kin to be seen as one that gives more to the community than they take. And I have communicated this often to our officers and members.
So let me take this opportunity to apologize that I gave the appearance of impropriety. I did tell my kinship officers that "I was in discussions with Turbine about the bug." And this was true, but perhaps not the whole truth. I have an email conversation of exactly five messages, three of which were penned by me. This is a shorter conversation than I've had for previous Weatherstock coordination. I always try to maintain a level of professionalism and propriety in all my conversations with Turbine. I am afraid I cannot share the transcripts of these due to the NDA attached to the signature of every Turbine community staff member. But I will ask for you to give me the benefit of the doubt in doing the right thing. And I would ask that anyone who has given Floradine grief over this in the past few days to please back off, and consider writing your own conciliatory post. Floradine has been incredibly active in getting Weatherstock ready to go. She's organized bands, created posters, tweeted information, and worked the hardest of anyone to bring attention to this music bug. For this, she has my thanks and admiration. I hope she has yours as well--this has been a job well done, and I feel bad about the stress and burnout this has engendered.
Hi evuryone ! Fincin here. Just want to put my two coppers worth in. For what its worth. I cannot see LMB or anyone involved with LMB ever getting any special attention. If they had we would have had a new fiddle or violin long ago an not been given a piggyhorn what sounds terrible!!!
Hugs to LMB and everyone for all the hard work they put into all the great shows, and to Flo! Don't let none of them get you down. "You ain' dids nuthins wrongs if'n ya askins me" :)
Fincin of Landroval
[sings] Something touched me deep inside the day the music died
[walks around and hugs everyone at the show]
Thank you for taking your time to explain as best you could what happened. From the outside looking in, it did seem like special treatment. The natural player council divide and the very secretive nature of the whole thing compounds the issue as people struggle to find anything that brings them hope in an information vaccum created almost entirely by our lousy treatment of the developers and each other as a community. I do hope Flora will reconsider her departure, and that together, we can show Turbine and the rest of the MMO world that LotrO's community is truely the best out there!
Originally Posted by Harperelle
No you're not allowed to. What a completely silly idea Floradine. Back to your hole for second breakfast. :p
Originally Posted by Glenwin
Well is it wrong to be vocal about what we love? No way! Each time there is a bug with a instance/raid or anything else. I see numerous thread on technical forums/general discussion etc etc.
I don't want to hear any exuses and apologizes. Keep send in bugs/ be vocal and scream and shout. Everyone else do the same. Yes we are a minor group of people, but during the 6 years music system has excisted there hasent been much changes. Lately we have had to live with odd bugs. (not hearing people in FS, and we had to relog) But it hasent been fixed. It has been mentioned about clarient /flute out of tune, I havent seen that changed either. It has been several petition about new instruments, not much has been added during those years (Just the pibgorn......) So I dare say we are a very tolerant bunch! I guess I and many others have been clearly aware of that we are not so much in priority, compare to other sides of the game. Thats totally totally fine. But is it fair? Not really. But I can live with that.
But to not hear the music? Well what can one do? Many events/RP events are depended on the system to work. So Imho opinion what other choices do we have than use every ace's we can?
Weatherstock is a event that weight very HEAVY for the community, so I am quite frankly GLAD that this event is around the corner, these people that organize it have fully right to get the attention. Is a huge advertisement for the unique feature that exicist in Lotro. Besides if it wasent for them. I am afraid we musiclovers probably had to wait longer to get this bug fixed..(and that is not good)
So keep shout/scream. AND noone gonna leave this game because they are told off ( don't let 1 comment put you down, rememebr there is probably 99 agreeing with you and cheering for you<3 focus on that instead :) ).. I certainly wont leave, I have enough friends to support me. Even the ones I raid with support me in this, even if they don't play music actively. But they love to join the music events and know how much this means for me and other musicians in Lotro. I guess everyone see how enriching this is for the community overall.
I am quite confident it will be fixed soon. one have to hope atleast :)
Well said Lady Achazia. I agree with everything.
Originally Posted by Achy
Short version: No, I sure hope not. Longer version: elsewhere.
Originally Posted by Glenwin
Now let's get this bug solved. I'll try shoot a video later this weekend of what we noticed last night related to certain zone changes and triggering music on/off (possibly related to Grym's post above).
Glenwin, dont be silly. If the kin your in does not approve, then i bet there is a lot of kins that would love to have you as a member both on Landroval or Laurelin (Order of the Divine Brew on Laurelin included). There are 'idiots' in all layers of society i'm afraid but you should not let those get you down.
Originally Posted by Linawillow
Lina: Aye, was grand doing some testing with you, Barkgrim and Raggo<something> ( :-) ) last night. Very odd behaviour of the system indeed.
Definitely glad to hear the Dev's officially aware of the bug, with all the drama of recent days and the many bugs that have surfaced you do worry that it gets lost in all the noise.
As many of the better folk whom have posted before me have already said, I think this is quite a rare occasion where those who love and use the ABC system have rallied together and make some noise (no pun intended)
Up until now we have all been immensely patient with the gradual creep of minor bugs that have appeared in past updates (I have submitted bugs in the proper manner as I know many others have) and we have endeavoured to find ways to work around them while we wait and hope for a fix. So what happened recently was the last straw for everyone.
In part it is strangely a good thing that this ABC bug has occurred so close to WeatherStock (it being such a public, well known and excellent server event), as it has drawn a huge amount of attention to the bug, I fear if the bug had surfaced at perhaps another time of year it may not of received as much press even if we had all rallied in the same fashion.
I do find it a little perplexing that some suggest we are being too vocal and are perhaps circumventing the proper channels. This is the age of digital and social media and every uses it, the fact we have all used the proper channels, social media and these forums to raise awareness is no different to anyone else. You only have to look at the many forum threads and the several twitter streams/feeds.
I am frankly very grateful and glad so many care about the ABC system and are prepared to be vocal about it. The ABC system is brilliantly unique to LOTRO and it is very much worth fighting for.
Floradine, please don't judge the community based on a few bad apples. I believe that most people are very glad to hear that Turbine is aware of the bug and working on a solution. I certainly am. And I sincerely appreciate LMB's efforts to put on awesome events. Weatherstock is the thing I look forward to all year.
Originally Posted by Glenwin
If you must leave something, leave the forums. The forums are where most of the bad apples hang out and gripe. It's not a good place to spend time if you want to maintain a positive attitude. But please don't leave the game. The community would be worse for your absence.
To those who are complaining about special treatment, consider that the music system has suffered from bugs often in the past and has always had "WAI" deficiencies, such as the awful or out of tune sounds of some of the instruments. In fact, at the time this new bug surfaced, there was a pre-existing bug that started showing up around U9 that still hadn't been addressed. The music community tried to bring it to Turbine's attention but didn't make a lot of noise because it was relatively easy to work around and we're not a very demanding lot as long as we can play music. And I've heard about a massive bug back before my day that broke music completely and wasn't fixed for 8 months. Can you imagine? This bug right now also all but breaks music completely. My music group Andunie was able to find a spot to practice yesterday that worked, but we had to try multiple spots first. This bug is totally unreliable and totally unworkable. It makes music based events and much RP impossible. We can't live with this one. That's why we're making noise. This is a game-breaking bug for those of us who play mostly for music and the community that springs up around it. (Like me.)
Is there special treatment? If there is, I would say it's not special treatment of a particular group of people, it's special treatment of a special EVENT because that particular event draws a huge amount of people and quite a bit of press for the game. People who aren't involved in it don't seem to realize how the type of strong community that music and events foster is a big healthy sign for the game and a draw for new customers. This just isn't something they can easily overlook anymore.
So is there special treatment? No, there's actually still subpar treatment. Turbine SHOULD be more proactive about communicating about bugs with the whole community. We're lucky that they communicated with someone about it at all. We're lucky that they told anyone that they are looking into it. They SHOULD look immediately into ALL game-breaking bugs. We're lucky that they're looking at this one right now. Don't complain that they're giving music something closer to but still falling short of good treatment. Complain that they're not giving good and/or equal treatment to all such bugs. Complain that they never communicate with any corner of the playerbase the way they should. Just don't do it here. We don't want to hear it right now. We just thank Eru that something is being done at all and that, presumably, we won't have to wait 8 months for a fix.
Originally Posted by Earinlin
Were we vocal about it, really? Did we cry? No. Maybe my blog post and my video was heartfelt, that's all. And we only told people on Twitter to use the proper channels to communicate the bug. We informed and educated people, rallied them to help because many eyes see more than a few. There is nothing more to it. Just as anybody else we only cook with hot water as we say here in Germany.
Very well said Earinlin and Fionnaula.
On a sidenote: I am not so eager to find "new" work-arounds to play my music. The music is way to bugged and unstable at the moment. To many workarounds has been done in past; I hesitate to bend myself, and go to southern Breefields to play music instead of Bree. I rather stop play to be honest until it's fixed..Is not to be difficult, but I have been way to patience in the past, and I have figured out it truly don't pay off..
If we try finding new work-arounds, I don't think it will be fixed asap if we seems like a happy bunch founding a plan B.
Of course we can help out the devs by pointing out where it works or not. But in the day they have to dig properly into the code. I suspect to many quick fixes has been done, so somekind of overview is beeing lost. This because of all the new updates. So all this mysterious bugs that happens perhaps have nothing to do with the music system itself. But environments and new updates with new features that might influent it. This because the new update and Musicsystem probably dont go hand in hand anymore. But I don't know. Just assumptions..
To talk about special treatment , right priorities is quite frankly irrelevant. I bought the game just like everyone else.This is a feature that exist, and as a customer I expect that it should work 24/7.
I agree with Achy, more workarounds are the wrong answer to this issue.
I have to correct one thing regarding my kin: When I was talking about help and rewards I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about those who questioned us. And maybe rewards is even the wrong concept here.
I will explain what I have seen yesterday to illustrate how I think and how I work. You can cut a slice off if it for yourself if you think this would be a good way to work together as a community as a whole:
A PvMP player asked about trying to copy Weatherstock in the Ettens. The motivation was to gain more love from the devs by that. There are two small problems with that:
1. Creeps can't play instruments
2. The motivation is the wrong one
About 1: This is a simple not-possible with game mechanics problem. It may though be possible to have a freeps concert there. Of course the creeps will attack then so this must be integrated into the concept somehow and not be valued as griefing. Whether creeps can contain themselves to not crash the thing for more than 50% of the event duration is something you have to get consensus over.
2. Doing a concert only to gain the devs attention sounds good. But they have said multiple times that there are no plans to extend PvMP content for the forseeable future. So it might be best to not make the concert dependent of reaching that goal. Weatherstock is held for the shere fun if it and nothing else. It is a labour of love for the LMB and for the bands playing there. Just make something that is for having some fun only.
After I saw the idea I told them an idea that sprung into my mind when adding 1+1: Some keywords only: PvMP battle, Childsplay, Sapience + a bunch of developers, player vs. TeamTurbine. They will have to do it in their sparetime, yes. But maybe it's fun. Let the people grow together by letting them play together. This would improve a lot methinks. TeamTurbine of course would have to step up for that.
So, what did I do here? Did I ask the devs to withdraw time from the PvMP'ers to give us to fix music bugs?
No. I did the opposite. I tried to help you creating a fun event that could stand on it's own feet and is a great deal of fun, I am sure.
These are the terms I would like to see all of us working together.
I know this is no answer for the raiders. I don't have a good idea in the moment on how to improve things other to fix Draigoch (if still broken of course). That may be a bad example, you know better than me what is broken in terms of raiding so please go and try to communicate those issues in a kind way.
One more thing: Why did we postpone Weatherstock? Not only to get a fix by time but also to allow the devs enough time to fix the broken music system. So, yeah, we played it nice there, didn't we? Maybe this can tell you too how to communicate with the makers of the game.
Hmn, playing music seems to work ok for me, in fact i almost wet myself laughing because i had someone raging at me to get me to stop playing last night, this went on for a while and finally i said to him "you do know that you can turn off player music in options right?" he replied with "I'M QUITTING NOW BECAUSE OF YOU!" and logged off, it wasn't as if i was even in a busy location, it was practically the middle of nowhere, LOL.
Short review of a concert the band and me tried yesterday in Thorins Hall (Dwarrowdelf):
Worked fine when we started the first song (6 parts, quite fast) we had a few "hick-ups" (those are new and others reported them here as well - but I think they are connected to some major other bugs affecting game performance and apply everywhere in the game)
Upon switching an instrument there is a chance that some ppl in the band/audience will stop hearing it - we had one member of the band that couldn't hear music from another person in the band anymore after a change of instruments (including flute, horn etc).
So if you insist on doing concerts: go to a zone that still works, have your players never change instruments and you should be fine.
Those constraints are way too severe to have a relaxed music playing session ... Turbine .. can't you start a server running at update 5 or so where everything was still working fine, so we can have our music back?
One thing that struck me after reading a comment elsewhere (thank you Arnhor!) is that the group of instruments with this problem is exactly the same instruments that are "fire and forget" - the cowbells, the drum, the lute, the harp and the theorbo.
The wind instruments all play note durations, the percussion and plucked instruments don't.
The wind instruments don't have any trouble, the percussion and plucked instruments do.
Maybe the sample playback mechanism (sound system governing logic) for those two groups differs in some way, just a thought.
Ah this may be why i didn't see any issues, i only ever use a flute, it's the only instrument apart from the drums i feel sounds right.
Originally Posted by Phede
no idea. no official announcements?
Originally Posted by Grymrock
Was just playing in Rivendell. Irregardless of quantize, or low latency toggle, during playback on strings. lute and harp,
There is this pause of 1/64 to 1/32 on notes. More prevalent during the first 4 bars of the song. You can hear the
song breaking up sometimes during the middle of playback. In extreme cases playback is muted temporarily before commencing again. More so if you play LotrO in window mode an run something like a calculator or a browser multi-tasking.
This is why I believe there's some other script that is running in the background that is interfering with the time sensitive
playback of songs. It's either an anti-hacking script, or that suspected wildermore harp script that it's checking for before
letting the song proceed onwards.
Entering the ear range of a musican in mid play, you will not hear his/her music, until a new song is started.
First post on this thread, so lemme briefly say that I'm hopin Fionn'll change her mind; be a real shame t' lose a player o' her caliber.
That said, I want' highlight another issue with this music bug that I don't b'lieve anyone's mentioned here yet, which is that it seems all ABC dynamic markins are no longer bein read by th' system. I run a Band on Crickhollow Server, an aside from Bree, we've had success in playin concerts, as long as everyone logs in in th' area where they're goin t' play. That done, all th' instruments play, everyone can hear, an theres been no issues with switchin b'tween instruments from one song t' another.
BUT. Everythin we play now all plays at th' same volume level. I work up lots o' our ABC files m'self, an add dynamic changes so that th' melody, fer instance, is louder than th' chords underneath, or th' song fades out at th' end, or whatever. None o' those things happens any more. ALL TH' PARTS PLAY AT TH' SAME VOLUME, ALL TH' TIME. <-- Sort o' like that =P
I'm a bit surprised that no one else has noticed and/or mentioned this til now. But it seems unlikely that it's only our players that this happens to. An it's been noted in several diffrent places, on group an solo tunes, an seems t' be across th' board.
SO. One more thing fer th' Devs t' fix... But also mebbe a clue as t' where t' look t' fix it.
Bolderbrook, did you send in a bug report with this description? If not, please do.
Regarding Fionnuala: She is not the one who wanted to quit, that was me. But many messages from my friends in this game made me reconsider things and I decided to stay. That does not mean that what I said doesn't stand anymore. Quite the contrary. I strongly believe that we are better together. The roleplayers, the musicians, the PvMP'ers and the raiders. We all are in numbers few compared to the anonymous mass of people that plays the game and we should work together, everyone, if one group is in trouble.
Woop! Flora, I'm sorry fer gettin ye' confused with Fionnula... must be somethin about all these names startin with F... or else I'm just batty.
But aye' I have indeed mentioned this t' th' Bugs people; hope it helps ;)
Aha! I noticed much the same thing last Friday, when we played an 8-person band. We were likely so overjoyed of getting everyone able to hear the music at all that we didn't bother much with it, but I certainly remember everything sounding way louder and much more muddy than usual. I like me a good wall of sound, but not to the extent that the playback crackles.
Originally Posted by Bolderbrook
We'll try rehearsing again tonight - I expect more bug reports *sighs*