I really like the idea that the Tarnished Symbol equivalent upgrades-in-place a Third Age to a Second Age, etc. without having to remake it. But the grind of swapping out an item every 5-10 levels is the bigger issue.
But while I agree with a lot of posts here about what I would like for me, I think it's pretty fruitless to talk about what I would like while dismissing what Turbine needs to make money. Because if we're gonna do that, what I want from the legendary item system is for Turbine to send me a check for one meeeeeeeellion dollars every time I get a LI from a random drop.
Generally, I think if we, as a community, could rally behind ideas that give both us and Turbine what we need, we'd have a thousand times better a chance of getting our ideas taken seriously. But we really never do that. We're not cohesive enough to do it.
For instance, if the idea of the Third-to-Second rare-drop item were to be considered, imagine if, at the same time as they added it, they also added a Buy It Only In The Store scroll that upgraded in place a min-level-N item (of any Age) to a min-level-N+5 item (changing it to Third Age). Those two things put together mean everyone can get one good item, pour time/agony/TP into getting the legacies right, build up relics using the timesink grind Turbine wants us to do, but then keep all of that and then upgrade the item by levels and ages -- one via the store, the other via raids, and never have to deconstruct-and-rebuild.
Turbine loses the money they get from selling the TP some of us spend on relic removal scrolls and some of the LI upgrade scrolls (delving, legacies, etc.), but they could well come out ahead anyway if the "add five min levels" scroll costs enough. And they still can offer us some timesink (but not nearly so frustratingly full of "everything I just did was for nothing") in building up relics and levels, and some dependency on raids to have the best gear, and they can still promise "you can do everything without spending TP, but if you want to spend TP you can get it easier and quicker". And we can avoid the most tedious and the most lore-breaking parts of the LI system (that there's ten thousand LIs, the ground is practically covered in them, and we throw them away like so much toilet paper when we're done with it). And it even doesn't require a lot of recoding, or break anything we have now, since it just adds one more pair of options to it.
But we'd never rally behind that kind of idea because of that one part where Turbine charges us money for the add-five-min-levels scroll. So instead we end up stuck with the mess we have and have to make the best of it. And we propose lots of wonderful solutions from our side of the table that are all money-losers for Turbine and thus are never even going to get listened to.
I haven't liked it since before they decided I couldn't have my hard-earned relics back at max level decon. That was by far an extremely pointless move and it caused me to NEVER work harder than the tier sixes I always keep in my weapon. I'm not gonna waste time getting extraordinary gems or t8 relics when I can't get them back without paying money or getting extremely lucky.
working on my weapon is my least favorite thing to do in this game. and it always has been
This is the wrong attitude, IMO. You're indirectly placing blame on the players. It's not the players' job to propose ideas for WB-Turbine to monetize; it's WB-Turbine's job to create product and provide service that is desirable for consumers to purchase. Player suggestions are really to provide a wide field of creativity in terms of solutions WB-Turbine may not have considered.
Originally Posted by HunterGreen
On the product side, I'm talking about polished content and well-tested mechanics, well-written quests, well-scripted instances. On the service side, I'm talking about stable servers, support services, bug fixes, and so on.
Rather than thinking about a discrete solution like LI post-level-cap "causing WB-Turbine to lose money," you should think of the combined product/service MMO success in terms of player attraction and retention. Attraction and retention in the broad scheme of things for a player means weighing many various experiences of the game in a cohesive economic decision. For a number of us, for example, that means the LI variable is weighing down our enjoyment of the game in the long-term sense, and quite noticeably such that we don't look forward to each subsequent level cap raise.
Having player-friendly mechanics that might cause redundancy or irrelevancy for a specific item in the store does not mean they will destroy WB-Turbine. What it means is that WB-Turbine should consider solutions to remove/reduce barriers of enjoyment (within reason--no need to nerf everything to heck) and monetize other aspects of the game (within reason) to make up the difference, if necessary. Travel convenience. Housing with the upcoming revamp. Storage. Cosmetics. Whatever.
Having player-friendly mechanics that might cause redundancy or irrelevancy for a specific item in the store still has a higher priority for both attraction and retention of players who will spend for other items and future expansions because we enjoy the game more as a whole. It's better to look at this as a big picture. And I personally see the LI system as a big ol' blotch on that pretty Middle Earth picture.
1. Customizable skills modifier.
1. Random luck decides whether you'll be burdened with more or less effort to make your dream LI.
2. Random stats on 2-handed weapons.
3. Quoted for truth to emphasize my main dislike about the LI system:
Originally Posted by Fipiara
Talking about this as "blame" is the wrong attitude at its most essential. You are not in a marriage, or divorce proceedings, with Turbine. Turbine isn't your little sister. You're in a business relationship with Turbine. Talking about proposals which are mutually beneficial is the only kind that's not just hot air.
Originally Posted by Trilwych
Of course there's a business relationship, but the onus of improving product still rests on the seller after constituent complaints.
Originally Posted by HunterGreen
You're missing the big picture that when players enjoy the major mechanics of an MMO, they're much more likely to stick around with each new level cap, period. My argument is that WB-Turbine (and people like you who argue that every single player suggestion should be monetizable) has to figure that out instead of looking only at discrete monetization within a major mechanic (relic removal, etc.). Given how popular cosmetics are and, potentially, housing can be, I'd rather argue WB-Turbine remove the pain of the LI system and monetize other aspects of LotRO. $20 horses still sell fairly well, from what I can tell.
The current legendary item system is a miserable grind. Those responsible will likely be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
You really think I'm missing that? Check this way: is what you said part of what I said, but only part? Or is what I said part of what you said, but only part? Figure out who's missing something by your answer. Or on second thought, nevermind. Have fun with the thread and enjoy the grumping and the last word and proving my point.
Originally Posted by Trilwych
The first mess I would like to see avoided is having all these weapons dropped or bartered and then most end up on the scrap heap for relics.
It would be better to get ONE (series of) weapons or weapon shells depending on level.
You can have the three 'ages'. Grant third age weapons/items from quests. 2A and 1A can be from crafting as it is now.
Begginer (45-50) Enter Moria.
Level 60 Enter Lothlorien or Edenwaith
Level 65 Enter Mirkwood or Dunland
Level 75 End of Great River (plus Bridles)
Level 85 End of East Rohan
What would be dropped or bartered would be relic cases that accrue item xp and can be de-constructed at any time for relics and xp. You can use the relic master to meld any legacies for the appropriate weapon using the appropriate relics (for that level). There would be limits to how many major and total legacies you can have per weapon/item.
No more random legacies. You would need to earn relics and make them.
Get rid of crystals. No need to keep extraneous weapons for relic fodder.
What I like about LIs:
Legacies: while most are must-have, there are enough that are player specific that I feel like I'm unique. On some characters. Stuff like -Stamp CD, -SotD CD, RC CD, and others have really made these skills a lot more useful.
I liked making my first LI, 4.5 years ago. It was fresh and new and exciting.
I like that there is very little reason to upgrade most non-DPS 2nd Age LIs to 1st Age--a few extra points to spend--so that I can mostly ignore the entire process and stick with 2nd Ages. Not sure this is a point in its favor, but I like it nonetheless.
What I dislike about LIs:
Just about everything else. The fact that each one is just a copy of the last one that you threw away, the fact that they don't grow with you, and the fact that passives are too random.
I don't get any satisfaction out of winning 1st Age or 2nd Age symbols anymore--my first thought is "great, time to re-grind version 8.0 of my current weapon. Likewise, I don't get any joy from winning any other LI-related loot.
I don't like IXP runes, removed legacies, etc... clogging up my vault.
I don't like that we're all using the same weapon skin.
I don't like that the X button to close the LI panel is so close to the last LI tab that most of the time when I try to close my LI tab, I open the store instead.
I don't like that most of the end-game development resources go toward making new ways to get us to grind for LI items. Including, but not only, gating LI scrolls behind rep and rep items and making so many LI scrolls that it takes a trip to the lorebook to figure out what there is and where and how to get it.
I feel like they could be replaced entirely by a detailed enough trait tree and only exist to feed money into the store. I wish they could find a way to make money AND put in a system that was fun and enjoyable.
Basically, they put in a short-sighted system with no plan in place to keep it fresh. Unsure if that was intentional, and they're purposely encouraging a revolving door strategy, or if out of incompetence, but there's nothing in the LI process that leaves any fun beyond the first few LIs--at best there's a minor sense of accomplishment at having the horrid process over with.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Not really.
I like the main idea behind the legendary item system: your character gets an item that is legendary!
That was first mindblowing going to Moria and set high expectations such as that these items really grow with your character.
Unfortunately, these items do not have the value their name promises.
Is it really a legendary item you throw away on each level cap increase? Do I really need to grind and overgrind the same relikts again to try to build the weapon I want for my gameplay within the whole randomness? Or finding a "legendary" item one after another (most not usable for the class you are on) and thus throwing them away? Not so "legendary" at all, or?
Therefore I can only say that I really wholeheartly dislike the current system:
- too much grind
- throw away the wepon upon cap increase (btw. my current 85 chars still use 75's SA)
- too many exp runes (these damn things are annoying and are no real reward). if they would be at least barterable....
- no legendary axe for my dwarfen minstrel
- ugly cosmetic (I know, weapon cosmetics won't be coming, but it is still annoying)
- random random randomness
Upon introducing the idea of legendary items I had something totally different in mind...
Instead of giving skill trees to players for their characters now they should better apply this idea on a revamp on the legendary items.
Imagine the following:
You get to choose your legendary weapon/item as you like. Drops of others are really rare.
Upon leveling your char and your weapon you choose "skills" in a skilltree to improve the way you play with consequences upon you choices (different path and XOR choices).
These "skills" either are like the current legacies or add stats to the weapon. Improving skills can be done by inserting relicts (up to a given degree). Best would be, if each skill would either be in synergy with a given class trait (only usable upon equiping that trait) or at least trait lines.
You may either build several legendary upon your liking to match different playstyles or - e.g. for raiders - you use the FA or SA symbols to unlock additional path to match your weapon multiple playstyles or such.
Well, that's just a random thrown together first idea. But that would be more fitting mechanic for a system call "legendary item".
When I first heard about legendary items in SoA, there was also first talk of the leaderboard (which turned out to be for PvP).
In my mind, legendary weapons were going to be the following:
A weapon whose accomplishments were tracked, with attributes rewarded for certain achievements, like deeds attached to completing objectives with the weapon equipped, such as "Kill 1000 orcs" or "Defeat X boss in X raid" giving the weapon titles or damage types.
I thought skill deeds would be tied in to making your weapon stronger, e.g. 100 Killing Blows with Relentless Strikes gives a permanent damage increase.
I was excited at the prospect of having a weapon I prized as much as my characters themselves, and had a similar history.
I was a fool. :p
Not really happy with it.
I don't mind so much that you can buy some form of upgrades to them in the store. These sales do keep the game going. Obviously storebought stuff shouldn't make "work" ingame invalid, but it should give a decent bonus for li's or save people some work. Worthwhile enough that some people buy them (which gives turbine money which lets them keep the game going).
I DO mind the the whole constant deconstructing thing. Really takes the legendary out of the legendary items. I'd much rather have had, as others have mentioned, that the weapon grew with you through out the game. That you were making it legendary so to speak. Maybe even with customized looks.
I also do mind the exponential amount of work you have to put in via the much rising cost in relic melding and forging and so on. It's not say that I don't mind spending eg. a week to get a good item. It's that in the very start I could get (relatively)good stuff with a few days work and now I am looking at multiple weeks (if not months with my gametime allowance) of grind.
I'd personally much rather have a relatively flat rate of work... like, just as an example. 2 days for a decent relic and 7 days for a good one. Maybe upto 14 days for a godly one, but thats about as far as I want to go with grinding.
After that ... the fun to gametime ratio plummets.
Unhappy. Very much so.
Apart from some very good points earlier in the thread, my own reasons:
The main issue, is that LIs are literally junk items, to be thrown away and replaced (hopefully!) with the same identical item one or more levels higher (with a few pitfalls, to boot!).
- They are ridiculously complicated:
- required level
- item level
- legacy tiers
- legacy ranks (and their complicated values for different levels and ages)
- legacy points (and their complicated distribution for 3A, 2A, 1A)
- pool a, b and stat legacies (see below)
- crystals and scrolls of various sorts and level ranges
- relics (don't get me started on these)
- shards (ridiculous currency that has costs completely out of touch with in-game realities such as other NPC prices etc.)
- They started the whole pRNG debacle:
- random, unchangeable base stats for two-handed weapons and class items
- random legacy types and tiers (see below)
- They follow restrictions that are obsolete and/or pointless:
- pool a and b serve no purpose other than frustration wrt. the pRNG (see above)
- limitation to 6 legacies (7 with crystal), when there are only so many legacy points to be spent, is pointless and redundant
- The UI elements for handling them (especially the relic master) are utterly catastrophic, scroll bars, expandable trees, tabs, cut-off text elements and tooltips everywhere, nowhere is the information more cluttered and hidden behind the scenes than there.
- Instead of simplifying them, ever more crud is added. If you take a look and the LI progression chart, you will probably come to the conclusion that there is no coherent concept behind them and every change is one band-aid on top of the last.
I once-upon-a-time wrote about the Legendary Items in my own thread (long, long ago now...) The basic opinion from then, with some added:
The IDEA of Legendary Items was BRILLIANT. The implementation was/is HORRID (The single worst part about this otherwise awesome game -- worse than bugs, worse than lack-of-content, worse than "The Store" becoming your creepy silent playing partner...) In fact, I loathe the LI system so much I essentially quit playing because of it. I came back, but I'm only really intending to play until I would get to Moria, then maybe switch servers again and start over a 3rd time - maybe. And I'm a Lifetime account-er.
What is so bad?
1. The exceptionally excessive grind toward throw-away items that are: a) Overly complicated, b) Ugly, c) Look exactly like the thing that everyone else has, d) Useless if one doesn't pour practically all of one's efforts toward it's advancement.
2. The LIs supplant the identity and development of your character.
3. There should only be 1 LI per character.
4. LIs destroyed the game economy. (If you played prior to Mines of Moria, then you'd understand this.)
5. LIs force you to consume TPs. (Grrrrrrrr...)
6. Everyone's LIs end up being exactly the same (or very nearly) because there are obvious choices that are better than others -- so why even have the options. [Rhetorical question]
What we all thought we were getting: my own personal Glamdring.
What we actually got: Today's grind = tomorrow's firewood.
I think it is worth noting that I have no problem grinding for something worthwhile that is permanent. Grinding for transience is called futility.
Alas, I have never been happy with the legendary item system. Just about everything about it was a poor decision from top to bottom.
Compare/contrast the skirmish soldier system, which behaves much closer to the way the legendary items were originally described: you get one skirmish soldier, but: you can trait them as you see fit; you can customize their appearance, behavior, and abilities; they grow with you (assuming you invest marks into them, at least); and heck, you can even choose their name.
Legendary items on the other hand are simultaneously required yet disposable, pointlessly complex and obscure, utterly lacking in lore or flavor, and frankly add to the grind without adding fun -- which is the worst thing you can say about any aspect of a game.
There is only one solution, just as there was only one solution to radiance: throw it away completely, and replace it with something else. It's the only way to salvage it.
-The Gneech :cool:
I'd like a complete overhaul of this incredibly grindy system. Hopefully our team of Community Representatives (or whatever they're called) will have some recommendations that Turbine likes. There are a number of suggestions in this forum that I like very much. Go team!
First of all, I'm level 43 champion, I've never tried LI yet.
Originally Posted by thegneech
Still,I want to try to say something about LI :)
It is quite clear for me that developers don't want us to have a weapon which we are going to use from our level 50 to the end of the game. And that's quite understandable. Sticking to one waepon kills a lot of thrill looking for a better weapon, because you already know that there's no better weapon in the whole world than your yet-underdeveloped legendary item.
There must be a way to give user a signal that there are better weapons there somewhere in the world. That you have to find it yet and make it yet better. While you are in this loop, you may still have a piece of fun. When you've got it, the thrill is gone, you only need to work hard to make it better.
Comparing LI to skirmish soldier is not fair in my opinion, because there's no way (in this game) to find a better skirmish soldier. There are no shops, no quests, no smithing. Nothing is build around it. You can only improve your soldier (or change his/her class). LI is different. Shops, Quests, Smithing. A lot of different things are done for weapons. And now we say, well, forget it, starting level 50 we don't need anything about weapons anymore. We just make our legendary weapon better and better. No way! :)
I'm just filling like I'd like to share my ideas (which are probably miles away from reality).
Anyway. There are two options as I can see it:
1) Let we give user a possibility to make a choice between tons of weapons. If we limit the possibility to enchant/empower/improve any single weapon then user will have to switch to another sooner or later.
2) Let's give user one single weapon which he'she can improve endlessly.
Both options are nice I would say. Unfortunatelly it is kind of hard to implement both of them at the same time. But it is possible to do it differently. Say, weapons, armors, tools fall in the first category, but skirmish soldiers, attributes, skills end up in the second. Should we move weapons from first category to second. Yeah, but why? If we move weapons to the second category then we need to move something from second category to the first to make the whole thing balanced, don't we?
I hate it.
Turbine basically uses the system as an excuse for bad behavior in end game design. We have to steal your seals, so that you can have the joy of grinding them in this new super &&&&&& update. The original intent of li s is gone.
Frodo: "I wish Legendary Items had never come to me, I wish none of this had ever happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such grind, but that is not for them to decide, all we have to decide is what to do with the game Turbine has given us"
I agree with this post 100%. +Reputation for a well written and well thought out point of view.
Originally Posted by GB-Esty
I would really like to see Turbine add some quality to the game instead of maintaining a ridiculous, quick-money and, most of all, game destroying content like the current "Legendary" system. There is so much potential here and I feel that instead of doing great work which results in a great game, Turbine would rather make sub-par and cheap choices to make a dollar, effectively crushing the wonder and enjoyment of Middle-earth.
Despite the unlikelihood of a grand turnaround, I sincerely hope this changes soon.
Agreed with all of the above! I recently returned to the game after a 2 1/2 year absence. I pretty much hated the clunky LI system from the beginning along the radiance armours. I'm very happy that Turbine has done away with the radiance business, but disappointed that the LI system is worse than ever.
Originally Posted by thegneech
I had hoped that they'd at least re-vamp the system, if not do away with it altogether.
Turbine please consider fixing LI system a Complete Overhaul.
Like Gneech said, LI weapons should be more customizable more efficiently even their appearance even dyed, they should be able to grow with you from lvl 45-85 and beyond.