1) Collaboration of similar legacies:
Such as the power cost reductions and critical multipliers; can these both be collaborated into two respective legacies that affect all power costs and critical multipliers? It only makes sense since other classes have legacies which cover all critical multipliers into one legacy.
2) Legendary Traits
Some of them have lost their status; could you make them legendary again:
- Press Onward: Unscaled since it was introduced, and the induction is painful. Similarly, the recent power nerf has made its usage quite low, so in retrospect, you could remove the induction as well.
- Bow of the Righteous: Before U10 it was such a small number, but with U10 it will now be obsolete. Could you possibly make this a percentage of power return? Or even easier: make it a percentage reduction of all ranged skills - easier isn't it?
3) Trapper of Foes
This is the only other thing I see the Hunter's require a change to (Other than the possibility of further survivability through something other than a bubble or heal), this trait line needs to be buffed or completely revamped. There are numerous suggestions for a revamp to this trait line, but any revamp would put this line in a better place than it currently stands.
Whatever revamp you do to the class, as long as it is a reasonable one that has taken into account most of our suggestions for the past two years, I, and others I am sure, will be happier with the class.
Not the PvP dev anymore, huh? Good to know PvP has nothing going for it.
Actually if you look at the dev tracker he's talking on a couple of new spots. I wouldn't be surprised if that's in addition to working on PvP. Most of the devs have several areas that they work on at a time, not just one.
Originally Posted by Penionn
Top Three Improvements For Hunters
1) A Dev that actually listens to the Hunter Community(the guys who play hunter 24/7) and not just the guy, who has a level 64 hunter or the guy who has a cousin twice removed playing a hunter. Most importantly, a Dev that also reponds (In Forums).
2) A Dev that actually reads the forums. There are actually some very good ideas, if you glean through the walls of text, QQing and crazy talk. Here are a few you should read.
3) A Dev that actually plays a Hunter. Do you play Live or just against other devs in controlled environments? How is our survivability against ranked creeps solo? Why is our fluidity of movement so choppy (I feel like im dancing with all the animations and rooting skills grinding together). Why do we have so many skills that almost nobody uses?
p.s. I am not trying to be surly...this is what I actually think will help hunters the most.
Greetings fellow Dev Kelsan!
let's get straight to it!
1 - Legendary legacies consolidation: focus/induction crit, threat reduction and power ones; merge them in just one each please.
2 - Some dumping threat skill like champs enbing or burglar provoke.
3 - player made traps have a very long cooldown, remove it or reduce it substantially.
4 - To many craftable items you can take for a raid/instance; maybe consolidate bow chants or include it on stances.
Thanks for listening us!
Originally Posted by Bhorn_EU
A Note to Kelsan
First of all, that you so much for being here! I haven't been this giddy since Mines of Moria! I am so excited that Hunters are finally getting a revamp! It's going to take a while to find a GIF that properly illustrates my excitement.
Hunters, as you acknowledge in your posting, have become rather restless recently (myself not least of which). This is due to many factors that I will try to list out from my perspective as a Hunter.
- our basic utility value skills/traits that were designed for Shadows of Angmar have become obsolete. This is primarily our CC abilities and "Lessons from Nature" skills.
- our survival has dropped dramatically since our inception in Shadows of Angmar. This is a very big issue for many hunters
- our entire DPS rotation has shrunk down to orbit around one skill spam: Penetrating Shot Spam
- Traits and skills have become outdated and defunct. I will try to compile a list of skills that need a good look-see
- Lack of Threat management has become one of the leading reasons why Hunters are less desirable for raids. Hunters must consciously limit their DPS output to avoid drawing agro and cannot do their full DPS without drawing enormous amounts of aggro that overwhelms many tanks.
-in PvMP we have become disastrously ineffective, with most creeps now having an overwhelming number of ways to counter almost every Hunter skill, while Hunters have very few ways to counter creeps. Survival plays greatly into this.
I can only speak for myself, but I believe, summarize Hunter problems.
as for my 3 things I would change, I believe that Hunters cannot be fixed in 3 simple changes, but a thorough fix with all-aspects-evaluated attitude to pin down and fix the problems.
but If I was to pick 3 particular things to get done, I would pick:
1: Press Onward Made Inductionless and scaled to current morale levels
2: Trapper of Foes modernized to be a mix of viable CC and debuffs
3: Fleetness revamped into something that allows inductions on the move.
again, this is not all that needs to me done.... everything needs a look-see like Bow of the Righteous, Penetration shot spam, and mercy shot..... there is lots to be done... but hopefully we can start now!
This is pretty much how i feel right now, the outdated part too me is one of the most important issues.
Originally Posted by Lendas
Out of everything i like the idea of a mobility option by some sort of toggle skill/stance. Being rooted to the ground to do any real damage is very annoying and causes issues when fights are long or when they start without letting you get ready (set traps and focus up).
Heh A dev who joined 4 years ago with 15 posts thank you for taking the time to at least listen to us. Here is a comprehensive list of what needs to change.
1. Hunters were slated to be the top single DPS role with a backup of crowd control. Needless to say we are neither.
2. A Re-look at how our stances work, does anyone really use STR or END as mush as precision? I have not used either in a very long time. Primary reason is the focus regen on precision and how it ties into our DPS. Especially in the moors. All stances need to have a form or focus generation with precision being the top. example.... Precision to stay as is... END a tick every 6 seconds and STR every 7 seconds and keep the other inductions producing as normal.
3. Threat generation, Hunters are meant to put the little stick into the Big Bad Guys Eyes. This is the whole point of our class. However it is to easy for us to pull aggro off of a tank even in END mode. And I manage aggro very well, but it happens frequently. A cure for this could be aggro dumps that are not on such long timers, and making Camo useable in combat and an aggro dump as well with no movement
1. Quickshot and Imp Quick shot needs to have a shorter induction, its called quick for a reason 1 second is not quick.
2. Barbed Arrow, for the love of god make the DoT on it 20 seconds and increase the damage slightly. 10 seconds it not long enough for this as its the only way to keep a Warg from HIPS'ing away.
3. Improved swift bow, to help with our DPS bring back the 3rd shot doing the same damage as the first two, that alone will be a great change for our DPS
4. Merciful Shot and Imporved Merciful Shot.... Keep the 6 focus requirement for MS... and reduce it to 4 focus for the Improved version
5. Rain of Thorn's needs to have its break time increased from 1 second to 5 seconds before it breaks on damage
6. Bard's arrow is a legendary why?
7. Rain of Arrow's needs to have its damage increased
8. Heartseeker for the love of all that is HOLY get rid of the enemy seeing the cross hairs that announces HUNTER HUNTER get behind a tree! Also the damage needs some serious scaling up.
9. Improved Focus needs to have its buff uped from 5 seconds to 10 seconds
10. Cry of the Hunter for the love of god we do not need a bubble, change this from it granting morale to it doubling our focus generation on inductions and keep the stun.
11. Agile rejoinder needs to have its HoT increased even maxxed with legacies its a joke
12. Low cut increased the duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds
13. Hunters Art... OMG just get rid of it, its embarrassing
14. Burn Hot increase duration from 20 seconds to 30 seconds
15. Beneath Notice needs to have its duration from 10 seconds to 30 seconds so we can actually DPS during a boss fight
16. Strength of the Earth needs a serious bump the Power and Morale recoup is stupid low for level 85.
17. Campfire needs to be useable in combat and be scaled up significantly. Allow it to have a non Comabt buff and a Combat power and morale skill
18. Just put DF back to the way it used to be, specifically for the Moors. The nerf was idiotic especially considering the changes to Wargs in the Moors
19. Blood Arrow remove the morale cost, it already has a focus cost
20. Tracking just make it one skill
21. Split Shot and Improved split shot need to have the AoE upped a bit to say at least 10 meters
1. Bow of the Righteious just have it return a flat % of power say 5 or 10. In its current upcoming form no one will use it
2. Press Onward, remove the induction and combat inhibitor
3. Improved Fleetness, currently one of the main problems in the moor's is we have to stand still to be affective. Have this skill either
A. Allow inductions to be done on the move
B. Reduce the cost from 6 focus to 3 focus
C. Increase the duration from 30 seconds to 45 seconds
The problem in the moors are its to easy to walk through us and LOS us when we are in close quarters. Without a lot of focus generation we are screwed.
4. Bard's arrow, why is this a legendary again?
5. Cool Burn needs to reduce the cooldown of Burn hot by another 60 seconds.
6. Explosive Arrow, no comment never used it.
Currently the Hunter is the joke of all classes and has been since the release of MoM. It has steadily been stomped into the ground. We are suppose to be the single target king, simply we are not. We have no solid secondary role.
The moors is set up to be a group zone, while in a group in the moors' the hunter is usually the last to be taken care of we simply fall to fast. We do find ourselves solo a few time and our survivability while solo is atrocious, its very hard to do, especially with all the store bought items. Stupidest thing turbine did was letting the store into the moors. A few of the changes mentioned above could really help the hunter in the moors, specifically the fleetness changes
Please I hope you take not only mine but others suggestions to heart, to long has the hunter been the laughing stock of Lord of the Rings Online!
Originally Posted by Kelsan
Obviously not all of what I posted can be changed and please do not take it at such. However if some of those changes were implemented it would greatly help.
1. Scale all our skills that can be.
2. Survivability, the armor changes hit medium classes hard, Wardens got thrown a bone, we need one to chew on too.
3. Make legendary skills, well ... legendary, I like the suggestion for bow the righteous to restore a little morale too.
4. Consolidate induction/focus legacies and give us some juicy new ones.
5. Mobile combat, make us at least equal to minstrels in skill movement. Maybe a dps penalty for moving with a legacy to reduce the penalty but let us use our skills on the move maybe a legacy to increase dps when standing still? hrrm, mobile/static combat vs induction/focus? the hunter is at its most dangerous when standing still with time to aim?. Playing a minstrel then switching to Hunter just isnt funny.
6. Stealth, give us a stealth skill like the burglars but not as good, somewhere between hobbit stealth and burg.
7. Threat, if we are going to put out the most threat per damage point, can we please have "working" threat reduction skills/legacies.
It would be nice if the bleed and slow of barbed arrow stacked.
Just a couple of additional points- maybe more directed at some of the other players and their suggestions:
While hunters should be kings of dps, I think some are wanting to put hunters into god-mode: huge dps, no aggro, able to run while shooting massive fireballs that destroy the destroy the enemy. On the whole I'd like to see some of the "god-mode, my class can do everything" thinking disappear. That seems to have permeated many of the classes over the last year or two. in SoA every class had it's areas that it did well and it's weaknesses. Now there's few weaknesses and no one needs the other classes. For the sake of balance, challenge, etc., please do NOT work on making the hunter overpower everything. Some of the suggestions I'm seeing seem to lean towards that end of the spectrum, and that's something I don't want to see. But at the same time, there are a huge number of improvements that hunters need along with a rebalancing and reworking of all of the classes.
Second- please don't make changes with PvMP solely in mind. PvMP is NOT the main focus of the game, and it shouldn't be the main focus of the class overhaul. Considered and kept in mind, sure. But don't make a change to a skill just because of how it will work in the moors, make the change based on how it will work overall. For example- the hunter's target on Heartseeker. Originally HS did a much larger proportion of damage, and the effect was part of that. It was fine in the moors because it was a warning that a huge hit was about to occur, but the moors was NOT the reason it did that. Hunters have been able to use it fine there, and the moors is NOT a reason to remove it. However, if there are compelling reasons to remove it in regular PvE, then that makes sense. Again, the moors shouldn't be the focus of the changes, the regular game should be, while keeping in mind but not focusing on the affects it might have in the moors.
after writing 4 times a epic wall of text whit the result: "You do not have permission to perform this action. Please refresh the page and login before trying again.
To log in, please use the link at the top of the page.
" here is the short version:
1) Clear defined Traitlines
* Currently we have 2 Traitlines doing basically the same: Damage. And a third one that you nearly never need.
* There should be one Traitline for Damage, one Traitline for Moveability and Group Support
and the other one for Range Tanking (Hey you have 2 Melee Tanks but only one real range tank... we tanked Cargaraf, we tanked the Trees… so why not?)
2) Revamp of Skills
Heartseeker: Highest power cost, highest CD, highest induction time and correct: lowest damage (time/power/damge compare to other skill). And a yellow cross on the target thats sais: "hunter takes a brake. ahh and some little damage incoming".
Stances, i would change them for the new traitlines:
-> (Strength) :The Bowmaster: +% damage per levels trait (tree traitsystem?). +1 Focus each 5 Seconds
-> (Precision) :The Huntsman: +10% in combat run speed for fellowship. Alert skills: no incudctions, but higher CD.
-> (Endurance) :The guarded Archer (you will find a better name xD): Increased thread form skills. +inc Healing.
Hunters Art: Should be changed to tiering up/down system (max 3 tiers)
-> The Bowmaster: +5% damage for 30 seconds
-> The Huntsman: - 1 sec Skill Cooldown (just for the additional form the Huntsman Stance)
-> The guarded Archer: +10% perceived thread
Legendarys: They do not feel legendary any more. most give to low benefits.
-> Press onward: should be instant skill. (even normal mobs could deal more than 2k damage in 4 seconds)
-> BotR: it now (bullroar) gives 5-7 power/skilluse. thats about 300 icpr. or 55 fate. thats not really legendars isn't it?
Meriful Shot: it costs 6 focus, therefore it should not miss neither be block or evade able.
What i do miss: a skill that requires 9 focus.
3) nahh 1 and 2 should be enough
I am a rank 10hunter on nimrodel this last update of ror I saw a significant drop in dps inafter I geared out my hunter now… I wish we had the old dps pre moria I remember burn hot with heart seeker pullingoff 8-10k hits all the time …Now we are the most sought after class for creeps tokill we have no major dps anymore I really wish it was the opposite sincehunter is the most popular class make it fun for the hunters in pvp .....Heartseeker needs no induction RKs have EC with no induction why can’t we? and EChits harder the HS!!!! Make merc shot hit way harder than it does now FREE THEHUNTER DPS that is the answer ...dps dps dps dps dps dps this is…. the cry ofthe hunter
1. Instant cast press onward, scaled.
Originally Posted by Kelsan
2. I want better melee damage, or at least a build that allows for more melee damage at the expense of ranged DPS.
3. I want shots from Camo to crit or dev crit. The assumption is, the shot is unexpected and the entity taking it is unaware.
My hunter has been my main character for the 4+ years I've been playing. Here are my three suggestions:
1. Consolodate Skills: We have way more skills than can possibly be used in a meaningful rotation, both ranged and melee. Melee skills are primarily useful for their side-effects: buffs, interrupts, etc. I'd like to see those side-effects added to our ranged skills and the melee skills seriously weeded out.
2. Indunction-less CC: CC is a hunter's primary form of survivability, but most of our CC skills are induction-based, making them difficult or impossible to use when you are in a fight. I've played CC soloing and in raids, and there is a lot of potential, but as it stands now it really doesn't improve survivability compared to traiting for straight dps.
3. Power management in long fights: This is not so much a change as it is a request to account for this. Hunters have been all over the map at different points in the history of this game in their ability to maintain their power-levels in long fights. Sometimes we've been pretty self-sufficient. Other times we've been power-starved. It's fine if we have to select traits, run in endurance, use SotE, and/or pot to make this happen, but it's not fine if we do all that and still have to get power from LMs. I'd rather that power go to healers. Needy hunters are SOOOOOO annoying!
I learned this the hard way myself. Now if Im writing a long post, I always copy the text before posting, just in case it forces a relog.
Originally Posted by Milithion
It's truly wonderful to see a blue name here on the forums. Here's what I've been wanting for the hunter class.
1. A useful secondary role for hunters. Current instance and raid design show that devs do not want to make instances with traps in mind. As a result, CC is no longer a viable secondary role for hunters (and we don't want to lose dps to trait for it). Make us bring skills to raids so that raid leaders will say 'we want a hunter.' I'd prefer debuffs.
2. More survivability for hunters. Currently the class feels like a glass cannon, and since I have played a healer, I definitely notice how squishy hunters are. The heals that the class has need to either be scaled, inductions removed, or made more useful when mobs are beating on you.
3. More mobility for hunters. Our fleetness buff is very short and unsustainable, which makes it difficult to dps in very mobile environments, such as PvMP and raids (such as the OD wound wing race), or to get away from any mob that is pummeling you into the ground. I'd really like to see some sort of kiting stance that allows you mobility and inductions on the move for a price.
Edit: Ok, I noticed in other threads that you wanted more specific suggestions. Also, there are some things that haven't been asked for by other posters yet. These have less to do with the above three tenets, which I'm sure that you've noticed are a theme in other threads. These are more specific tweaks.
1. Scale everything. EVERYTHING. Our snare bleed is appallingly low (I think it still ticks for 27 damage, iirc.) And the amount of damage our trait "Shot through the Heart" is supposedly supposed to give? Hunter books, as another example, have not scaled well and are currently very poorly designed for our class in comparison to RK chisels.
2. Stance changes. I personally think that, similar to burglars, all special skills gained from the yellow line should be moved to a special CC stance, then yellow line should be completely changed. Traiting 5 deep into yellow for a mez that LMs and Burglars can do is rather pointless. However, if that same skill was stance-gated, hunters would technically lose dps for CC, but could flip back to dps rather quickly.
Additionally, our other stances need a pass to become viable again. A lot of people don't like to nerf their dps significantly to run in Endurance stance. I'd much rather see a stance like the Quiet Knife line, where it increases damage while still reducing your aggro. In the same token, Precision needs an update now that its 'reduced miss chance' has been taken away and perhaps -attack speed should be its highlight. And Strength, well....strength is sad. It needs a hug.
3. Allow effects to stack, particularly barbed arrow bleeds. I can't count the number of times I've used barbed arrow, then realized that I'd already had a bleed going on a mob. It would also be great if we were to get debuffs that, like RKs, those debuffs could tier up every time we use them.
Here are my old posts about revamping the hunter, for further ideas:
Right now the primary DPS class with no real secondary role can easily be out DPSed by a class that can also serve as a main healer, one that can off tank, and one that can reliably CC (if you say go yellow line, please just stop reading) Changes I would like to see.
1 Consolidate legacies. Right now I use power legacy, crit, and thread down.... twice. (induction and focus) please fix that.
2 stances, would like a reason to use each one.
Strength - flat % base damage (all skills) + bleed chance
Precision - flat % crit (all skills) + focus like now
Endurance - massive power reduction + threat down (all skills) imho if in endurance stance while using power legacy and legendary skill, it should be impossible to run out of power, ever.
3 tracking skills, one skill. minor thing and only a convenience.
just my thoughts and most are borrowed from others.
I have 6 hunters. My main hunter has 8 months played time on it. I'm about to hit rank 15 in the moors this week and have done every PvE instance on every level.
Out of all my experience the things that we have always looked for change is.
1) Survivability. The Cry of the Hunter was one of the most exciting things that we have gotten in a long, long time. But 1500 temporary morale? There is a very long animation for the cry to go off. By the time the animation is over the bubble is gone. The removal of slows provides no temporary immunity meaning your opponent or enemy can simply refresh the slow. You Devs had a great idea with the can't setback inductions while bubble is up, the issue is the bubble is non existent. I realize hunter is not some tanking class or such but literally the bubble is nothing but a feel-better and still die button. As far as PvP goes the mez only lasts 2 seconds resulting in nothing but a tease mez.
I would love to see something that could actually save us... morale gain from damage while needful-haste active, intent concentration provides 50% evade for 15 seconds ect. Such would be my suggestions that I do not believe would deviate the roll of the hunter or make it overpowered. This is about PvE too not just Moors.
2) Stances... It seems every expansion there is THE stance to use. It was always strength for the most DPS and now it is precision. I could make an entire 10 page report on suggestions of bonuses to make them equal but my point is there needs to be bonuses to make each one attractive. Hunter is a DPS class, we choose the stance with the most DPS... I hope that would be obvious.
3) Hunters art. Make the buff 20 seconds long and twice as potent if you want people to use it. I don't know any hunters that waste their time with this skill. I don't need any more than my 10,000 finesse and I never use strength stance. This is stance related but this skill definatley needs to be adjusted. It is the most un-used skill out there!!!
This I totally agree with! Now onward to my suggestions.
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
I am going to approach this OP offer from a different angle. My input is directed at what I feel needs to be done with the hunter in PvMP and to some extent the fellowship or raid hunter (which, face it, is kind of a mini-version of PvP considering all the egos, bullies, sycophants, goldtaggers, etc., that find their way into raids). The hunter is at a good place in PvE imho, so here are my three suggestions, again, for PvMP:
1. It's time to give us back Desperate Flight while in combat. The story is that many blood moons ago creeps whined that this skill denied them infamy and it was turned off. Well since more creeps have options to deny renown, so what! I mean, if a warg can hips in combat, only to return to a hunter stuck with his thumb [you know where] waiting to be released from combat only to get jumped and finished off kind of denies him/her their chance at some renown, doesn't it? Besides, we'd only be able to do this at most once every 30 minutes so what's the harm in granting us one opportunity not to die one of the many other times we do?
2. I want to be able to track while mounted while in The Moors. Since the hunter is the only freep class that tracks it isn't a huge advantage as a whole, but it does give the hunter a separate advantage all his/her own. A choice to either sprint closer to his prey or, if he doesn't like what he sees, clear off! Kind of the same choices a warg has when he can track in stealth and either sprint at his foe or sprint away.
3. We need to be better at some of our melee. In The Moors it does not take us long to end up in the thick of it. I would like to see either a reduction in CDs (especially Improved Dazing Blow). Come on! One minute is just too long a cool down for combat in The Moors, and it is a good melee skill for any hunter. Or, increase effect durations. Low Cut anyone?
The reasoning for these changes, especially the first two, is basically a return to the basics. Don't turn off a skill you already gave someone and then call it balance. As a player I have the right to expect that I should have all of my skills as a hunter available to me regardless of PvE or PvMP, and that it is the responsibility of the dev team to properly supply creeps and [in the case of raids] NPCs with skills that counter them. I have been consistent in maintaining my opinion on this matter in the couple of years I have been playing. Thank you for asking for our input.
Almost 50 posts in one day... I mean if it is not a testimony that we are really broken...
Nothing much all have been covered I guess.
I second this.
Originally Posted by slflew
4. Induction less press onward - but seeing that in the last twitter chat the dev was opposed to heal for survivability.... it does not let a real margin.
5. A distant interrupt - because the melee one is a very limited option.
6. Bow of the Righteous leeching morale. But same comments than in point n°4.
7. Legacies revamp. Consolidation already evoked. I also would like one affecting the improved fleetness effects
8. Improved fleetness allowing inductions on the move.
9. Art of the hunter: animation reduced. Do not make it a mark as suggested by others, since marks only affect one target at a time and would be actually a nerf.
Crit from camo is a interesting suggestion. Similar to burgs. It makes sense you'd be able to hit a crit if enemy is un-aware.
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
Having a melee skill hit a bit harder would be attacrive as well.
And yes the press onward needs to be not a 4 second induction.
-Very good suggestions.
My first character is a Hunter, and it's been years since I really enjoyed the class. I wish you good luck in trying to put some fun and joy into the class.
1. Remove the herpa-derp Rain of Arrows spam and give us some awesome single target DPS instead. I can't understand why Hunters surpass Champions on 6+ targets yet are well behind Champions on 1 target. Also, the spamming of 1 skill should be against any good class design?
2. The legendary traits (especially the SoA ones) are just bad, especially from the perspective of a DPS traited Hunter. BotR has been nerfed to uselessness, press onward has never really been good and the rest is more CC-oriented than DPS-oriented. How about giving us a really good damaging skill, something that's in line with Raging Blades, Flashing Blades or Ferocious Strikes?
3. Trapper line - kill it with fire and give us something else. That line has never been good and I don't see how it ever will be. A debuffer/power/threat (or even a combination) line would probably be much more useful.
woa woa woa there.... RoA spam is a nice off-ability to do some AOE DPS just like champions can do single target...
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
and in no way shape or form can we out-AOE DPS champions.
the Lotro Wiki even states AOE as a secondary role.... I think the rain of arrows traits should be consolidated and made into something that allows us to do some AOE.
I agree that "spamming" a skill is bad design... but I would like to keep the AOE DPS option open for AOEing large amounts of mobs when needed.... Its actually quite fun to use..... no use nerfing what does not need to be nerfed.
Of course... we could possibly introduce a skill that makes your single target skills temporarily AOE a limited amount of targets............hmmmm....