besides the only time ive ever kicked someone was because they were not courteous.
i have always helped those willing to learn.
also i would never be part of a kin who did otherwise.
nor would i ever associate with anyone so rude.
I do understand your point and I've mostly always started with a competent core group when I pug that brings in extras. Usually this means even incompetent players are 'good' enough to complete the quest or instance. However, I also know what it's like to have too many people that can't do what it takes to finish.
There isn't anything immoral about having to kick someone because they aren't fitting well. It's just immoral if people are mean about how they do it. I usually feel bad when someone is kicked and I'm sure I would feel like hell if I got kicked for being a detriment to the group, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. I want the group to succeed and have a good time. If a player isn't a fit for the group then that isn't as likely to happen.
I don't think there is anything wrong with some play style groups that want minimum dps, radiance, gear score, trait set, virtue set, and not wanting to play with people who don't fit that criteria. They should be allowed to play the way they want. I would likely get kicked from a group like that, which is fine, because that isn't how I like to play. I probably wouldn't keep someone in the group who made a big deal out of that either.
I'm very confident in the development team's ability to add greater functionality to the game, through Lua scripting, in a way that makes the game more fun. Look at what they've added so far. There is some really good stuff right now.
the worthy or not bit was lifted from what i had quoted
that person was the one saying using addons allows one to judge another player based on a number....and he also said not allowing folks the ability to use such things to exclude other players was wrong.
i was responding to him saying that judging folks based on that was morally and socially wrong.
it has nothing to do with playstyle....it has to do with turning folks away just becuase they dont fit into your ideal.
if someone is missing something they might need...or is maybe traited wrong for what you are about to do...explain to them why..and ask them to fix it.
dont just kick them because they do not fit.
if over the course of an instance you notice a player is not performing up to par...take a moment to help them..dont berate them for being fail and kick them.
the great thing about lotro...is that every class is multi-dimensional...they are not one-trick-ponies..they can adapt to many situations...fill more then one role.
a good player knows this and can play their class regardless of situation..
a good player also knows weakness/strengths of other classes....
a great player imbues that knowledge on others who are in need of it.
Hopefully, the Devs, that are so enamored with Addons, will stop and think about the consequences of additional functionality to both the game and the community. My fear is that they are having so much fun playing with their new toys, that they may not.
My point is that we all have criteria we base group selection on. We all have criteria we boot group players for. If we're going to be totally fair we would have an in game auto-selection process for grouping and would never be able to choose our groups, and we would only be able to leave them, not boot players. That isn't realistic, but hopefully illustrates my point that we all like to choose who we group with for whatever reasons. We may consider their reasons juvenile (and that is a valid opinion), but they can indulge in them if they want.
More importantly there are reasons to have these tools available to all play styles whether or not some people will use it as a filter. I can think of group instances and quests I've been in where I haven't been on my "A" game and have wondered why. I've been in places where I've had aggro or couldn't grab aggro and wondered why. I've been in situations where I've wondered how much more or less effective a certain build is compared to another I use.
It's possible some of these tools could make some content easier, and I'm sure Turbine considers that when implementing their scripting API. In fact I'm sure of it because they can kill scripts dynamically without having to perform a server reboot.
People should be allowed to play how they like with whom they like as long as it is within the CoC/ToS/EULA.
However, I submit to you that the way I want to play has already been impacted by the leet raiders (aka min/maxers). Even str8tschut3r agreed with me that instance difficulty is increasing and that it's a natural side effect of the "players... of superior skill" burning through content more quickly. Meters will very likely result in further increases in instance difficulty (it certainly did in WoW; more on that below) as Turbine tries to maintain a certain challenge threshold for those leet raiders. This leaves the average player out in the cold and there's absolutely no hope for the below average performer.
(Btw, "below average" could be caused by a host of things from lack of time, resources, reflexes, experience, knowledge, practice, stable net connection i.e. satellite broadband, etc. None of these things makes that person of any less worth than anyone else. I've never booted a single player from any group I've been in charge of regardless of how bad they performed. In fact, the vast majority of the time I've successfully worked with the group in finding innovative solutions to beating the content even with the handicap.)
Let's say the Lua devs add support for meters and for the sake of this discussion let's even say those same Lua devs fully understand the impact meters could have. That's not enough. The instance devs must also be on board because in very short order those instance devs will start seeing their content being beat faster than ever (they can pull stats for that stuff).
That's exactly what happened in WoW when mages (my main over there) using DPS and Threat meters could crank out insanely high sustained DPS to within a tiny fraction of a percent of the tank's threat (it was so tight that I remember that our tank would need to call out "taunt resist" to ensure that our next damage spell didn't send us over the top to #1 in threat). The same type of thing happened with priests/tree druids with healing/threat meters. Every class was impacted. Just like Blizzard, Turbine instance devs will need to dial up the difficulty even further to stay ahead of these min/maxers.
Turbine as a development team must come up with a team-wide approach if they introduce support for meters. I've previously suggested a means to that end that let's everyone have access or challenge, whichever they desire.
In case it was missed, here is my suggestion (with expanded explanations):
- Quest mode - Not overly challenging. Average players can defeat the content in one go with a minimum of deaths. Primarily used to complete quests, deeds, get housing trophies, etc. No loot of any special significance to include nothing that would give access to radiance gear.
- Normal mode - Similar in difficulty to Uru/CD back in the old days (which would mean some current instances would need to be dialed back a bit). Normal access to gear like radiance barter items, but nothing that stands above and beyond other loot in game.
- Hard mode - Not like current hard or challenge modes. These would be insanely difficult, but the rewards would be worth it. I'm talking unique orange gear here.
But as I've said before, Turbine doesn't appear interested in listening to the rest of us. They continue to ratchet up end game instance difficulty to the point that my core group of 3 players (minstrel, guardian, and hunter started over 3 years ago) that have leveled together since level 1 will likely not complete the newest 3 man spaces (warg pens, etc.) in Mirkwood until we've outleveled it by 5 or more levels.
How do I know this? Because it was only recently after reaching 65 that we were finally able to complete Hall of Mirrors and Waterwheels in Moria. And that was with multiple wipes and did not include the final bosses or hard modes. That's pretty sad considering that we know how to play together so well that there's hardly ever any reason to situationally call out which FM to build, who should do what when things go south, etc. We're just not min/maxers and we're penalized for that playstyle decision.
I also have previously agreed that Turbine will eventually support meters, but I seriously doubt they'll implement my "tiered difficulty" solution or any other solution that gives the "less than leet" access to all the content (note: "content" = instance spaces/encounters/story and != gear). The rest of us just happen to pay the same amount of money as the leet raiders for access to that content.
Just wanted to chime in on "meters"...
Seeing as the community here has raided for the past three and a half years successfully, 12-manned Thorog (24-man raid) and 5-manned Thaurlach (12-man raid) on-level, both pre-Moria, and actually defeated the Blind-One on "hard mode" on-level pre-Mirkwood (an extreme challenge, triggered by going straight to the fight after the troll bosses without defeating the three other bosses afterwards), all without any meters... just how will such tools improve players? I fail to see any possible significant improvements...
Also, the most important thing in LOTRO is not to be "the best", but to have fun. Meters may appear to make things more fun in a way, but the only place where it may be genuine fun is within the appropiate player groups (and even then only when used responsibly). If there is something which makes things fun for one player but at the same time directly decreases how much fun another player is having (ie. misuse of a meter), such a thing should not be permitted ingame.
Another thing... in a recent dev chat earlier this month, it was clearly stated that they (the devs) did not want any plugins which would "trivialize" the content they create. Threat meters happen to do just that... so don't expect to see that kind of meter any time soon.
This is important to note, because DPS/HPS meters will not trivialize content - but giving numbers to something that has been previously only viewed in abstract terms, and making that visible to the player would certainly do so.
EDIT: I was fooled by the Dec 25th date... Should have looked at the year before necroing this thread :-)