True. Also, Threndipoo, per usual, speaks wisdom. To an extent, I think you're right Lef: Players should be held accountable for their own actions.
Originally Posted by Traur
That does not mean, however, that the makers of the game shouldn't be held accountable when the mechanics and/or dev communication encourages those actions.
There are camps of a sort in any game. When a t1 server in GW2 is randomly put with 2 t6 servers, rez camping happens as a matter of numbers: t1 servers are generally incredibly populous and active in WvW and they have the population coverage to defend the map 24/7. However, that situation rarely happens because in that game, generally, high pop servers are pitched against high pop servers. The 3 faction system also makes this unlikely, as rez camps are very quickly broken by the third team coming over and wiping the campers. This isn't a solution in LOTRO, because they can't exactly make a third alien faction without seriously effing up the lore. It is an example, however, of how PVP mechanics can maneuver the players natural instincts to a more dynamic fight.
In RoI days, fights generally centered around TA because the placement of OC and EC: there was an ebb and flow as player count fluctuated and people used their NPCs to their advantage. Unfortunately, it meant everything else on the map didn't really matter. The Moors revamp was intended to get rid of this, make every outpost and keep matter, and create a more dynamic map. They succeeded on the first two points, but the mechanics themselves not only allow, but encourage the side with greater numbers (and not necessarily organization or talent) to completely dominate the map... Creeps or freeps. Moving the camps put bases closer to rezzes, encouraging rez camps. The OP mechanic allows the winning side to completely dominate the other by mechanics alone. Yes, players choose to take those camps. However, a player shouldn't have to think of the overall metagame simply to play in the Moors. The average player sees something red and kills it. They see some type of keep or outpost, they have a quest to take it, so they take it. In the current system, this works well when their are large numbers of both freeps and creeps on the map, but fails when one side has a large population imbalance. It's natural instinct: It's Turbine's fault, not theirs, for pushing that instinct in a manner that encourages rez camps. One of the goals of the dev diaries was as follows: "Reduce the statistical and strategic imbalances between the two sides." The outpost system as stands runs directly counter to that purpose. It gives the side with the most numbers a distinct statistical advantage that SHOULD NOT EXIST. Especially when one side's gear progression will give them an increasing statistical advantage over the course of an expansion. I don't think the outpost buffs are a bad idea overall, but they should be removed from outpost capture and instead be used similarly to the "Outnumbered" buff in GW2: When one side has a distinct population advantage, the other side would benefit from a statistical advantage to compete. They shouldn't have to go PVE to do so when the other side can spare the numbers to flip it back in a heartbeat.
Because the system itself is screwed up, we create false handicaps for our playstyle, then get mad when people don't use them. Creep healing isn't as good as freep healing: Minis, rks, and cappies shouldn't be going heals. Or they shouldn't be grouped up. Or they shouldn't even come out on their OP characters. Champ bubbles are OP: they shouldn't use them in fights. One side outnumbers another: They should flip to the other side. And they shouldn't take OPs. Or they should just wander around the map looking for questers. But they shouldn't gank those questers if they're low ranked.
I understand why we put these handicaps in place, but they're all based on a self-awareness that rarely exists in PVP systems. How many times have you read someone in OOC type "Craid ganked me at TR"? Then you go over their to find out that it was a single warg. In GW2, people call out "INC!!" in map chat, you ask numbers and they'll say "~40-50 they're close!" You go there and it's 10 people and they're half a league away from you. People aren't even reliable at counting how many enemies are standing in front of them, yet we expect them not only to reliably police themselves but to know why what they're doing is ethically right? If you got a fellow of three players together, I doubt you could even agree to which handicaps ARE ethically right. Frankly, players shouldn't be expected to do so: This is a game after all, and it's not fun to purposefully handicap yourself. I appreciate it when people do so, but I don't think it's right to expect it or get angry at them when they don't. That anger is misplaced and detrimental to the PVMP community as a whole - Though I admit and regret contributing to that anger. The last thing we need is an added reason for vitriol.
Last edited by dagneyandleo; Aug 19 2013 at 05:47 PM.
[b]Lythiea of Dwarrowdelf[/b], Member of [url=http://dd-asylum.info][b]Asylum[/b][/url] - R8 85 RK
[b]Alts:[/b] Selenicereus, 85 guard, Castria, 85 cap, Fiordiligi, 82 LM, Minilyth, 75 mini, and Lythfiler, r6 filer.