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  1. #1
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    Defiler vs Warleader

    In your opinions, what would you propose be the better healer in certain situations? For smaller groups? (in raids, warleader, obvious option). And looking at the proposed changes, how do you think the healing between the two would change?

    Also, it looks like Warleader dps is getting a small boost, how do you think dps will be like between the two?

    Also, I'm not trying to start a war here. I'm just asking for people's opinions on what they find better to have around in certain situations.

  2. #2
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Both please...

    Warleader is triage and Defiler is preventative medicine. Which is best really depends on the fight more than the group size in my opinion. In a predictable fight a ranked defiler is my choice almost every time. Applied correctly the HoTs buy the group time to gain the upperhand in the fight. Warleaders on the other hand are probably the better choice for when you get jumped. Their spot heals and bubble can save the bacon and the in combat rez is also useful to get important creeps back in the fight when healing is not enough.

  3. #3

    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    R11 WL and R7 defiler here.

    Small groups, I much prefer defiler as the burst damage is less and typically since you have fewer healers, I need to stay alive to heal and be uninterrupted, hence I need the fear. Also being able to heal a bit while kiting really helps. (and healing still while stunned)

    Larger groups/raid levels where burst damage is severe, the WL has bubble and uruk heal which is critical to keeping reavers alive. Additionally in terms of recovery, the AoE rez can turn a fight around if you have 5 people on the ground. (in a small group if there's 5 people on the ground, you're likely one of them). In raid situations against significant and strongly led freep forces, the debuffs also become quite valuable for long fights.

    But I love having both of them around in a raid pairing up a defiler and WL in each group, both bring great capabilities to the fight.

  4. #4

    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    This coming from a R7 WL and a R6 defiler -

    Its been said already, its very situational. Warleaders can keep a reaver alive in the freep ball a little bit more effectively in my opinion, even beyond the bubble. The Group heal can also crit fairly high and give everyone a very nice spike boost (assuming your group is taking a slow consistent damage instead of just one of them being bursted down). In my opinion though WLs feel the pain of healing CDs more however, as the defiler (though still without a heal not hindered by a cd) is still doing passive healing with their HoTs.

    However, one issue that really tops the chart for defiler vs WL is their capability to heal and survive against pressure. Defilers WAY outshadow WLs with their ability to heal on the run or while they are being interrupted by a burglar. One freep can effectively and COMPLETELY shut down ALL healing from a WL. Defilers are still able to use a few HoTs. Its not much more, but its better than nothing at all.

  5. #5
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    I have to agree with Snagrot here and say both. They're more than adequate on their own, but when you pair them up you really get to see how they shine, especially when freeps decide to focus on a healer in a small group; Pick the Warleader and you're facing the best mitigations creepside has to offer plus a huge health pool and the Defiler can easily keep him alive, pick the Defiler and you have both of them healing while the Defiler kites.

    But if I had to pick only one, I'd choose Defiler for small group because of the interruptions issue. And for raids I prefer having more Warleaders, but again prefer a healthy mix of the two.

    As for how things will be when the changes go live: That's anybody's guess. Warleaders will be a lot stronger with the Commander's Stance heal induction reduction and Power of Fear for instant healing when their shouts crit but Defilers will get the incoming heal bonus and multiple Defilers will be able to stack their HoTs together. I think we'll see Warleaders able to handle the healing for a small group even while being focused because of the shorter inductions but that the Defiler will still be a better choice there.

    However, if a Warleader gets lucky with crits they'll be able to outheal a Defiler in a small group no sweat since they'll be able to hammer out instantaneous, 1.2k+ heals while kiting.

    But the real bonus will be, once again, when they work together since the Warleaders will be pumping out even greater and faster heals and take advantage of the +incoming healing buff Defilers will be able to throw out. And the stacking HoTs will greatly increase the effectiveness of multiple Defilers and make creeps surviving until they get Warleader healing or Fell Restoration to top them off a much more likely prospect.

    The real danger at this point is just going to be that freep classes just get too strong for it to matter. It's happened before so be prepared for it to happen again, but we all hope that it doesn't.

  6. #6
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    I keep leaning towards warleader. The proposed changes say brawler stance gets -50% cooldowns on black speech, which is a good dps boost in my opinion. So, they have more health, more migations, and now better dps. And their damaging skills don't have inductions(i think) and the defilers do. How do you think soloing will go for Warleaders?

    I was grouping yesterday with about 8 creeps and roughly about 6 creeps. Yes, my defiler was only rank 1 but I didn't stand a chance of healing due to the burst damage of freeps. A rank 6 warleader in the raid bubbled the person focus fired, healed them, and they survived. My Heals didn't make a difference. Basicly, all I see a defiler does is the slick flesh buff, out of combat rezzes and hots, that don't make a difference with more freeps. Whereas a warleader, can provide better heals, 25% damage which is great for wargs and reavers, the racial imposing presence and looks better (imo).

  7. #7
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo6 View Post
    I keep leaning towards warleader. The proposed changes say brawler stance gets -50% cooldowns on black speech, which is a good dps boost in my opinion. So, they have more health, more migations, and now better dps. And their damaging skills don't have inductions(i think) and the defilers do. How do you think soloing will go for Warleaders?

    I was grouping yesterday with about 8 creeps and roughly about 6 creeps. Yes, my defiler was only rank 1 but I didn't stand a chance of healing due to the burst damage of freeps. A rank 6 warleader in the raid bubbled the person focus fired, healed them, and they survived. My Heals didn't make a difference. Basicly, all I see a defiler does is the slick flesh buff, out of combat rezzes and hots, that don't make a difference with more freeps. Whereas a warleader, can provide better heals, 25% damage which is great for wargs and reavers, the racial imposing presence and looks better (imo).
    Defiler healing gets better as you rank up, be sure to trait full dps!

    By the way, defiler hots will stack after RoI.

  8. #8
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Defiler healing gets better as you rank up, be sure to trait full dps!

    By the way, defiler hots will stack after RoI.
    Yes, but does 1 single defilers hot stack? Or does it have to be from different defilers?

  9. #9
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo6 View Post
    Yes, but does 1 single defilers hot stack? Or does it have to be from different defilers?
    That would be from different Defilers. You can stack 4 different HoTs on a single target as a Defiler right now (if you have all 4 of those skills) but multiple Defilers are unable to do much else aside from that since they cannot stack their own versions of the HoTs onto people as well.

    One more thing is that R0-1 for either class is not very good for healing. You need R2 and the Harsh Language Trait to get effective as a Warleader, and you need Fell Restoration and a similar healing bonus trait for the Defiler.

    As for Warleader soloing: a Rank 6+ Warleader who knows what they are doing (like me) can do fine right now against most classes. But once the -50% cooldown time for Brawlers goes live, those Warleaders are going to be able to dish out a whole new level of pain.

    And as for looks I agree, the Warleader does look better.

  10. #10

    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    I dunno about you but a defiler is pretty amazing, I am rank 4 and I can put out some good healing. Nothing amazing yet since I am not rank 5-6. Rank 5 come Isen with the +inc healing buff to Fungal Spores and the better rank 6 HoT Efflorescence. I would think that defiler healing skills will shoot up.
    [CENTER][COLOR=#ff0000][B][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/B][/COLOR][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1320c01000012e8c6/signature.png]Tornsoul[/charsig]
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  11. #11
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    But who's dps do you think will be greater and better at soloing? By soloing, i mean ungrouped but with other ungrouped creeps doing the usual TA/EC shuffle. Defiler has more inductions while the warleader's are instant.

  12. #12

    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo6 View Post
    But who's dps do you think will be greater and better at soloing? By soloing, i mean ungrouped but with other ungrouped creeps doing the usual TA/EC shuffle. Defiler has more inductions while the warleader's are instant.
    Warleader for sure. I regularly crit 1k with black speech and 700ish with the other shout. Add in some melee circling and with RoI the shout cooldowns and warleader has decent dps.

    Defiler inductions on dps are simply a pain, but they will get shorter with RoI aswell. I doubt their gonna beat WLs though.

  13. #13
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo6 View Post
    Yes, but does 1 single defilers hot stack? Or does it have to be from different defilers?
    as said it will work exactly the same as RK HOT stacking does atm.

  14. #14
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by CuruornEU View Post
    Warleader for sure. I regularly crit 1k with black speech and 700ish with the other shout. Add in some melee circling and with RoI the shout cooldowns and warleader has decent dps.

    Defiler inductions on dps are simply a pain, but they will get shorter with RoI aswell. I doubt their gonna beat WLs though.
    Hmm. So warleaders bubble+heal more effective than defiler, now with RoI changes their dps increases as well. I'm starting to fail to see any disadvantages with warleader.

  15. #15
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo6 View Post
    Hmm. So warleaders bubble+heal more effective than defiler, now with RoI changes their dps increases as well. I'm starting to fail to see any disadvantages with warleader.
    I wouldnt say that. WL heals burst higher than defiler but they have less heal skills to use and their heals have longish CD.

    Defiler can pretty much constantly chuck out small heals so will be better off in a group vs group fight. Additionally they can put some pretty nasty debuffs out if you can keep the interrupts off them for long enough. Slick flesh is a nice group buff.

    After r10 they can then use blessing of darkness which is going to help in small fights too. and if a spider is getting ganked you can stack the HOTs on them while they burrow and ignore until they take effect.

    Most defilers I know do pretty well solo too once they get some rank behind them, they got some pew pew and are really tough. I would say in the normal OC/WTAB fights then defiler will do a little better because they have an incurable DOT that can be cast from range. Although WL has the ability to do more dps with the shout, the CD is lower for gourds. Also they got a ranged auto attack and reflect dmg after r6.

    The only problem defilers have imo is the length of the inductions especially for Fell heal, timing on that skill is key, but if someone is being zerged personally I can never get the heal off in time.
    Last edited by Dilated; Aug 15 2011 at 09:24 AM.

  16. #16
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    The point I'm trying to make is that the warleader can save someone getting focus fired pretty easily. I've very rarely seen a defiler do this. Fell restortation has a long induction, whereas the warleader's inductions are shorter and still effective. Any 1 freep can stop a warleader healing, and the defiler can still do hots, but they are very small, and if someone's getting focused it will not help much.

    And with the changes, defiler will still be better at soloing, but take longer. At rank 6, The warleader has the debuff, 2 shouts that does lots of damage if crits, and 2 melee skills. Most of the defilers skills have inductions that you will not be able to pull off if getting attacked. The warleader will not be able to self heal but with high morale and migations they will still last a long time.

  17. #17
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo6 View Post
    The warleader will not be able to self heal but with high morale and migations they will still last a long time.
    That's not entirely true. You can get off inductions with a couple people on you if you can manage to trick them and put a small gap between them and yourself. That said, the heals just come out so slow at that point that it really doesn't help much.

  18. #18

    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo6 View Post
    The point I'm trying to make is that the warleader can save someone getting focus fired pretty easily. I've very rarely seen a defiler do this. Fell restortation has a long induction, whereas the warleader's inductions are shorter and still effective. Any 1 freep can stop a warleader healing, and the defiler can still do hots, but they are very small, and if someone's getting focused it will not help much.

    And with the changes, defiler will still be better at soloing, but take longer. At rank 6, The warleader has the debuff, 2 shouts that does lots of damage if crits, and 2 melee skills. Most of the defilers skills have inductions that you will not be able to pull off if getting attacked. The warleader will not be able to self heal but with high morale and migations they will still last a long time.
    Youre looking at it to black and white (no offense). Yes, a WL can handle burst more effectivly than a defiler, but not so much that defilers are impractical. Defilers can do quite a bit of healing on the run, eons more than WLs. Its not as small as you might think.

    About WL damage, yes we CAN crit high, but in a morale spec Ive only crit above 1k 5 times in the last two weeks. However, Ive had all four of my shouts resisted more times than I can count.

    WLs do have high mitigations, but what use are they when you cant heal yourself or other group members? Besides they arent so high as you would think. A good burglar alone can rip through a WL in under 12 seconds if they now what they are doing. Add a champ to that and its over.

  19. #19
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Good point. I think I roughly know about each one a bit more.

  20. #20
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    Re: Defiler vs Warleader

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo6 View Post
    Good point. I think I roughly know about each one a bit more.
    Glad we could help you with that then!

    I do, however, want to say one thing more: Defiler or Warleader, you've got one of the few classes that can solo a Captain General given a few hours of quality time with them. After attaining sufficient rank that is.

    Whichever you choose enjoy yourself and have fun!

  21. #21
    Heya - interested to see what everyone thinks of this topic in the current pvmp climate. I play both defiler and war-leader, and a healing minstrel on freepside because I've always preferred to heal in pvp.

    My current view is that War-leaders are far more effective at healing in a group against current freep damage.
    Defilers were always viable group healers with or without warleaders, but now their heals seem to account for barely anything - half as many war-leaders are twice as useful to raids and groups, due to their bubbles, group rezzes, higher survivability, the ability to instantly get off large fellowship heals - up to about 9k crit iirc, whilst also being able to spike damage with the shouts.
    In comparison, defiler heals now will outheal poorly built guardians and captains and healing-built minstrels. They can still contribute blight to a fight, but this is a mere annoyance for any freep groups with a healing class, freep mitigations now reduce the dots to ~100 damage per tick - 300 damage every 4 seconds if a freep enters the blight spot 3 times. Their debuffs are difficult to get off in a fight, and are easily removed, and prevent us from healing if we are to keep them up.
    - In short, defilers have little to contribute to a fight these days compared to warleaders, not to mention comparing them to rks or minstrels.
    To make them a more viable class for group fighting - I think the rezzing could be changed - why a 30s cd on the only out of combat rez on creepside? minstrels are able to rez the entire fellowship at once, and have an in-combat rez as well. The new defiler skill with the last expansion - constant pain is near useless in my opinion - it provides a fellowship heal which is less than negligible - something like 70 morale per tick. Defilers seem ok at healing themselves, but useless at healing anyone else. Any opinions welcomed

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Haldlas View Post
    Heya - interested to see what everyone thinks of this topic in the current pvmp climate. I play both defiler and war-leader, and a healing minstrel on freepside because I've always preferred to heal in pvp.

    My current view is that War-leaders are far more effective at healing in a group against current freep damage.
    Defilers were always viable group healers with or without warleaders, but now their heals seem to account for barely anything - half as many war-leaders are twice as useful to raids and groups, due to their bubbles, group rezzes, higher survivability, the ability to instantly get off large fellowship heals - up to about 9k crit iirc, whilst also being able to spike damage with the shouts.
    In comparison, defiler heals now will outheal poorly built guardians and captains and healing-built minstrels. They can still contribute blight to a fight, but this is a mere annoyance for any freep groups with a healing class, freep mitigations now reduce the dots to ~100 damage per tick - 300 damage every 4 seconds if a freep enters the blight spot 3 times. Their debuffs are difficult to get off in a fight, and are easily removed, and prevent us from healing if we are to keep them up.
    - In short, defilers have little to contribute to a fight these days compared to warleaders, not to mention comparing them to rks or minstrels.
    To make them a more viable class for group fighting - I think the rezzing could be changed - why a 30s cd on the only out of combat rez on creepside? minstrels are able to rez the entire fellowship at once, and have an in-combat rez as well. The new defiler skill with the last expansion - constant pain is near useless in my opinion - it provides a fellowship heal which is less than negligible - something like 70 morale per tick. Defilers seem ok at healing themselves, but useless at healing anyone else. Any opinions welcomed
    Defilers definitely lack some upgraded skills - we get passed over every time there is an update. The HoTs are fine against NPCs as they don't have burst damage potential and in small groups a defiler with all HoTs and well traited can easily outheal freep damage on a reaver - it gets dicier with other classes with lower morale pools as they are more susceptible to just get eaten by big Devs.

    The lack of incombat rezzes, instant cast heals or interrupt resistant heals combined with the long inductions on all offensive skills makes filers very weak in raid situations. In a raid you are never going to be out of combat so the rez skill is utterly useless as the induction on it is the same as the induction on map skill from retreating and mapping back to fight. The induction heals mean we only have 2 weaker HoTs to use while kiting or while being focused and with only 1 burst heal skill on a long cool down and induction to go with the channeled skill there isn't much we can do about focus firing.

    Putting up puddle at a choke point can lead to a few very quick kills as freeps get caught with their pants down and -75% healing, but the induction and range means putting yourself at risk and reducing your heal output. In a raid you will usually want a few of both classes, in longer fights the sustained healing of defilers is tough to beat, especially if the freeps are not focus firing hard.

  23. #23
    Yes defilers definitely need a healing boost. I think one natural thing would be to upgrade the strength of constant pain since it's a group heal. Also, efflorescence should be stronger.

    Alternatively their debuffs could get a boost. For example, the blight radius could be increased by 50%

    In a small group scenario, 3 v 3 or less, I would take a defiler but in pretty much any other situation WL is better.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by asearchforreason View Post
    Yes defilers definitely need a healing boost. I think one natural thing would be to upgrade the strength of constant pain since it's a group heal. Also, efflorescence should be stronger.
    Efflorescence stronger ? It's the best healing skills defilers have ! I can see a lot of defiler skills that could use an upgrade before efflorescence, like, all of them really.

  25. #25
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    When it comes to healing, a defiler is downright superior to a WL.

    When it comes to survivability, defiler can be better because they have excellent heal on the move capabilities compared to WLs.

 

 
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