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  1. #1
    Registriert seit
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    Community Guidelines (and the TOS and other such documents)...

    I'm curious to know what the staffs' position is regarding players "policing" other players. I've gotten a lot of heat from other players both on this website and others. Idle curiosity prompted me to google my screen-name with lotro.

    Of course there were the neat ones such as me and my Survivors of Wildermore guide being included in Episode 185 of the LOTRO Reporter (which starts at just over 35 minutes into the episode). They got a few details wrong, such as when the SoW stuff could be started (epics not required; all the other quests ARE), and as with everyone, my name was too hard to pronounce! ^_^ I also saw a similar thing featured about my guide on mymiddleearth.com. This thrilled me silly!

    But then there were the bad ones, in which they ripped me up one side and down the other for my support of Turbine and Sapience and everyone. LOTRO was my first MMO and it remains my favorite MMO, and I do support Turbine and Sapience and everyone. You are all great, IMO. But obviously there are some vocal persons who feel the opposite and I've had to bear the brunt of that on more than one occasion. But one thing that stood out a lot (aside from the whole support issue) was that I too often "policed" other players. In my defense, it just seems to me to be easier if I point out the problems (since I can't punish people) before the mods arrive, since they can and will punish people. But apparently I should just mind my own business?

    The purpose of staff members moderating content is because a lot of people can't or won't moderate themselves, right? What is Turbine's stance on players moderating each other (not just themselves but each other as well?)? I know grammar policing is not allowed, but what about the rest of it? I know, I know, there is a report button, but that's to throw a flag at the mods to GET their attention. I hate to see people get in trouble for something they weren't aware of. I just find it to be a common courtesy to point it out in hopes of them learning their lesson without long-standing negative side-effects. I also am often a bit of a weakling and always try to give people second-chances. I don't want to call attention to their mistakes unless it is a seriously HUGE mistake (one that is very clearly on purpose, like some spam-threads from internet-marketers that popped into the forums over the last few days).

    So, can any blue-name shed some light on this for me? Are players discouraged from doing this? I've never seen any thread specifically for or against it from the staff members, aside from the obvious grammar police one.

    Thanks in advance!
    R5 100 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
    R8 100 MNS Fayah/100 LM Siennah/100 HNT Dinenol/100 RK Dhurik
    100 CHN Alachas/85 CPT Dinfaerien/60 BUR Dhax/35 WDN Godoric
    R9 100 MNS Fayeh (alt Wilya) - Lonely Mountain Band @ Landroval

  2. #2
    Registriert seit
    06.09.2012
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    The Sunset Grill
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    I may be wrong, but are you referring to player forum mods? I've seen a few MMO's in the past that handpicked veteran players and gave them special moderator privileges. The idea was to help better control the boards when the company mods were off duty and to foster a more closeknit relationship with the community. It would be very similar to the idea behind our own player council. Except they would have the power to give infractions or ban at their discretion.

    The problem, however comes into play when people have issues with those who are picked. Also, there is always the looming stigma of favoritism (One MMO board in particular had a huge argument over the fact that the picked player mods were all RL friends with the community manager.) So I can't say for sure this would be a good idea here in light of the recent events. Plus, I seem to remember seeing people here take issues when certain council members were picked, so I can only imagine what would happen if those people had banning privileges.

    Anyway, I hope I'm right and this is what you mean. If not, just take it as a tl;dr lol
    [IMG]http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy87/Torgeau/sig-lotro_zpsf040a784.jpg[/IMG]
    -[B]Fence Sitter of Eriador[/B]-
    "[I]All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal or fattening.[/I]" - Alexander Woollcott

  3. #3
    Registriert seit
    17.11.2010
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    In general, it's best to simply report the violation to us. Publicly calling out someone for allegedly violating the Community Guidelines is not typically allowed, although sometimes it's fine to sort of just tell the thread "hey, let's get back on track" or something. Directly accusing someone publicly of violating the rules is not appropriate, however. Let us do the moderating on the forums, please. It tends to work better for everyone in the long run if we don't have people accusing each other of stuff.
    Find Cordovan on : Twitter Google+

  4. #4
    Registriert seit
    30.04.2012
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    Zitat Zitat von Cordovan Beitrag anzeigen
    In general, it's best to simply report the violation to us. Publicly calling out someone for allegedly violating the Community Guidelines is not typically allowed, although sometimes it's fine to sort of just tell the thread "hey, let's get back on track" or something. Directly accusing someone publicly of violating the rules is not appropriate, however. Let us do the moderating on the forums, please. It tends to work better for everyone in the long run if we don't have people accusing each other of stuff.
    I think that's fair enough, the official line can be nothing but this. However, what I've witnessed Mar doing is quite reasonable. I believe he/she acts out of compassion, rather than telling the teacher so to speak, reminds a poster of the rules that be so that one may chose ones words more carefully. I think sapience has admitted how few people read say, downtime warnings on the forums and FB, Twitter etc. This will no doubt apply to community T&C too.

    To Mar , you probably do tread a thin line and get called "fanboi" or other less pleasant terms ( turbine apologist would be more accurate and mature). it's probably easier to ignore an infraction and let a mod eventually see it and a poster get banned or whatever. Likewise it's probably easier to hit the tell the teacher button. I think what you do could be the better option but not everyone will appreciate it, for fools are plentiful.
    Elendilmir - 95 Hunter Berenthalion - 80ish Burg Berendybuck - baby warden Berenion.

    Worst Reaver on the server BerendyBash - R4

  5. #5
    Registriert seit
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    Zitat Zitat von Rufus_T_Fyrfly Beitrag anzeigen
    I may be wrong, but are you referring to player forum mods? I've seen a few MMO's in the past that handpicked veteran players and gave them special moderator privileges. The idea was to help better control the boards when the company mods were off duty and to foster a more closeknit relationship with the community. It would be very similar to the idea behind our own player council. Except they would have the power to give infractions or ban at their discretion.
    Those exist? lol This is the only MMO forum I really use (*glares at SWTOR for refusing even former VIPs the ability to use the forums*) so I can't say much on what others do. But no, I wasn't even aware that there are handpicked player moderators. Mostly was just talking about players telling others about the rules. Like, sometimes players will do something that violates one of the Community Guidelines. As an example, Player A does a "fixed it for ya" type of a post, which is a violation. Player B points it out to Player A that they violated the rule. Motives vary, of course. My motives are always in the best interest of Player A (if I, who am powerless, point it out, surely that's better than having a warning or infraction from a real Turbine staff member, right?), but it seldom seems to come across that way, thus the heat I've received. On one other site I even received an impromptu "fill-in-the-blank of the month" award. (ie: very negative and insulting name there, if you know what I mean) O.o

    Zitat Zitat von Eldarian_Grace Beitrag anzeigen
    I think that's fair enough, the official line can be nothing but this. However, what I've witnessed Mar doing is quite reasonable. I believe he/she acts out of compassion, rather than telling the teacher so to speak, reminds a poster of the rules that be so that one may chose ones words more carefully. I think sapience has admitted how few people read say, downtime warnings on the forums and FB, Twitter etc. This will no doubt apply to community T&C too.

    To Mar , you probably do tread a thin line and get called "fanboi" or other less pleasant terms ( turbine apologist would be more accurate and mature). it's probably easier to ignore an infraction and let a mod eventually see it and a poster get banned or whatever. Likewise it's probably easier to hit the tell the teacher button. I think what you do could be the better option but not everyone will appreciate it, for fools are plentiful.
    She, but you are right. I do it out of compassion or consideration for other players. Not as a "wags-finger-ut-oh-you-are-BUSTED" sort of thing, just a "btw, you might want to reconsider what you just said because it has the potential to get you in trouble".

    I know I come across as a fanboi. I've taken SO MUCH HEAT just for supporting Sapience in my signature. It used to have a link to the Dragon Slayer award site and it said something like, "Don't worry, Sapience! We all know you are the REAL best CM." I still feel that (as said previously, this is the only MMO forum I really use, so I don't know any other CMs), but I've since then taken it down simply because people harass me simply because I'm a supporter of Turbine and Sapience. I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. And now I have a quote that accurately reflects my opinion. Actually, it was longer. There was another sentence afterward that said, "Don't be the one." but it was too long for the signature guidelines.

    Zitat Zitat von Cordovan Beitrag anzeigen
    In general, it's best to simply report the violation to us. Publicly calling out someone for allegedly violating the Community Guidelines is not typically allowed, although sometimes it's fine to sort of just tell the thread "hey, let's get back on track" or something. Directly accusing someone publicly of violating the rules is not appropriate, however. Let us do the moderating on the forums, please. It tends to work better for everyone in the long run if we don't have people accusing each other of stuff.
    Thanks for answering!

    For blatant (and obviously intentional) violations I do just this. I just click the report button and move on. And I also tend to be more defensive of others than of myself. If Player A is picking on Player B, I'll report Player A. If Player A is picking on me I try to just ignore it (not always successful; the old saying "sticks and stones break my bones, but words can't ever harm me" is NOT true). But for little things that seem to be totally accidental, I try to just point it out in a neutral and friendly way (I am working hard lately to be as neutral and friendly as possible). Would sending a PM be appropriate? A "call out" means to aggressively call out someone to call attention to something (usually negative?), as I understand it, and I strive to avoid that since I'm aware that call-outs violate the Community Guidelines.

    Basically... I am a notorious rule-follower. It bothers me to a great deal when I discover that I've accidentally broken a rule (usually one I'd forgotten about or never even seen, and yes that has happened on many occasions). It also distracts me when rule-breaking goes on. It still bothers me that I can't correct grammar issues on this forum. I understand there are foreign speakers here, and that's totally cool with me. But as a detail-oriented person (to the point of being OCD about it) with a degree in writing, that stuff gets under my skin and makes it hard for me to ignore it. But now that it is a rule, I force myself past it.
    R5 100 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
    R8 100 MNS Fayah/100 LM Siennah/100 HNT Dinenol/100 RK Dhurik
    100 CHN Alachas/85 CPT Dinfaerien/60 BUR Dhax/35 WDN Godoric
    R9 100 MNS Fayeh (alt Wilya) - Lonely Mountain Band @ Landroval

  6. #6
    Zitat Zitat von Mar-Evayave Beitrag anzeigen
    ....

    She, but you are right. I do it out of compassion or consideration for other players. Not as a "wags-finger-ut-oh-you-are-BUSTED" sort of thing, just a "btw, you might want to reconsider what you just said because it has the potential to get you in trouble".
    And yet you do admit to being an OCD-like rule jockey later. The nice wording you choose is not so relevant as your intention. One can have a sweet and inoocent demeanor and still boss people around all the same.

    The trouble with neighbourhood cops and self-appointed rule policers is that it is easy for them to lose a sense of the broader scope. Most every rule and law out there cannot be applied as-written, thats one reason why most countries have a very elaborate legal system. And this goes all the way down to something as minimal in impact as rules of a random internet forum. TPTB usually empower certain people, in our case the community team, to keep exactly that scope and broader view of context.

    Imagine me writing here to a "forum friend"
    "XXXXX, you´re such a pain in the ### sometimes"
    ...would be considered a friendly jab.

    Imagine me writing here to a "forum enemy"
    "XXXXX, you´re such a pain in the ### sometimes"

    YOU would be completely out of the loop as to the intention and context of such a post (notwithstanding what the mods know about it). And thats why it doesnt really behove you to police it. Now, I´m not saying you wouldnt be sensitive enough to understand the context and scope most of the time. But this situation means that you should not assume policing of a situation that you are neither responsible for nor have any stakes in.

    Lastly, there is a difference between rules that MUST be applied and rules that CAN be applied. Again, context. In the end, the rules just lay down the framework within which we move. Many rules dont HAVE to be enforced if doing so wouldnt result in an overall improvement. For example, why police a simple "Fixed it for ya" post when it can lighten the mood - ecalation is only necessary when there´d be a benefit to it. You can see this "keeping in context" every day on every forum, as well as here.

    I know I come across as a fanboi. I've taken SO MUCH HEAT just for supporting Sapience in my signature. It used to have a link to the Dragon Slayer award site and it said something like, "Don't worry, Sapience! We all know you are the REAL best CM."
    Did it ever occur to you that you might get heat for assuming the role of a mouthpiece? "We All..."? This always irks a lot of people including me, even if the majority doesnt even care WHAT it is "we all know", or considers Sapience as just plain "Rick with the beard" doing a job, and not as the Antichrist as he seems to be for a small group.

    Lastly, you will have to choose what you want. If you let yourself get irked by words, then you could choose not to put out such specific opinions. Strong opinions will ALWAYS be attackable, whichever way they go. And it gets even worse when your opinion is not reasoned, such as is the case when you admit to not knowing any other CMs
    Geändert von Vandervahn (10.11.2013 um 07:41 Uhr)

  7. #7
    Registriert seit
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    Because your post is lengthy, I did remove a few bits, and I tried to cut it down into sections as you did. I apologize in advance for the lengthiness of my own responses. xD

    Zitat Zitat von Vandervahn Beitrag anzeigen
    And yet you do admit to being an OCD-like rule jockey later. The nice wording you choose is not so relevant as your intention. One can have a sweet and inoocent demeanor and still boss people around all the same.
    For myself... I am OCD in regards to how I operate and I very clearly stated that I can control that OCDness. Ever since the grammar rule was introduced, I've gone cold turkey on correcting people on that stuff. Even if it makes it hard for me to read (and yes, I've been reduced to tears when it is bad enough -- I've been tested and have signs of dyslexia and aspergers and stuff; I'm hard-wired differently and things like this can disrupt my reading). But I can still endure it, even if it does bother me. And if it's a black and white rule about not correcting people on the rules, then I can go cold turkey on that too. I hold myself to a high standard and I can't expect everyone else to do the same and I can't make them do the same.

    But there is a saying that I really like:

    “It's all very well to run around saying regulation is bad, get the government off our backs, etc. Of course our lives are regulated. When you come to a stop sign, you stop; if you want to go fishing, you get a license; if you want to shoot ducks, you can shoot only three ducks. The alternative is dead bodies at the intersection, no fish, and no ducks. OK?"
    (Getting Control of the Frontier, Gainsville Sun, March 22, 1995)” ? Molly Ivins

    And if I care about dead bodies at the intersection, having fish, and having ducks... I'll step in and do something about it. We all share this place, and when some people break the rules it effects everyone. If it effects me, then it is my business. If it's a big effect, then I use the report button. But if it is something little, a reminder of the rules is a good idea. Thus my question on the method (which Cordovan has partially answered)

    Zitat Zitat von Vandervahn Beitrag anzeigen
    YOU would be completely out of the loop as to the intention and context of such a post (notwithstanding what the mods know about it). And thats why it doesnt really behove you to police it. Now, I´m not saying you wouldnt be sensitive enough to understand the context and scope most of the time. But this situation means that you should not assume policing of a situation that you are neither responsible for nor have any stakes in.
    Well, to put it bluntly: it does not matter. Profanity is against the rules. There is no gray area. It's not "no profanity unless you are friends or joking" it is "no profanity". The profanity rule is very clear that even using symbols or other means to put in profanity (to dodge the filter) still violates the rule. So I don't care who it is or who they are speaking to: the rules still apply. And the profanity effects MORE than just them. So many people think that it doesn't matter, but it does, and that is why there are rules about it. People swear to each other (even jokingly) but there are dozens or even hundreds of other people who are there who may not be so cool about it. Your (figuratively, not you specifically) words, even if said in jest to a friend, does effect others.

    Zitat Zitat von Vandervahn Beitrag anzeigen
    Lastly, there is a difference between rules that MUST be applied and rules that CAN be applied. Again, context. In the end, the rules just lay down the framework within which we move. Many rules dont HAVE to be enforced if doing so wouldnt result in an overall improvement. For example, why police a simple "Fixed it for ya" post when it can lighten the mood - ecalation is only necessary when there´d be a benefit to it. You can see this "keeping in context" every day on every forum, as well as here.
    Ah, but we all saw very clearly how that worked when Sapience changed people's signatures for having the old broken code to the former character banners. Some people thought it was funny (and it lightened the mood for them). But then there were some EXTREMELY angry people who were furious and felt violated. I personally thought it amusing, but their reaction made it quite clear that perhaps there should have been a better method used. So even something like a "fixed it for ya" to theoretically lighten the mood carries a very serious possibility to make people mad. I personally hate it when people do "fixed it for ya" to me, even if in jest, and I'll tell them so. It is rude and inconsiderate.

    Zitat Zitat von Vandervahn Beitrag anzeigen
    Did it ever occur to you that you might get heat for assuming the role of a mouthpiece? "We All..."? This always irks a lot of people including me, even if the majority doesnt even care WHAT it is "we all know", or considers Sapience as just plain "Rick with the beard" doing a job, and not as the Antichrist as he seems to be for a small group.
    But there is also the fact that "we all" does not have to equal "everyone in the whole wide world". For example: "My family is going to the store. We all are going to get some pizza afterward." I am a leader of a kinship; perhaps "we all" refers to my kinship. I also have a plethora of alts (some of which are listed in my sig); perhaps "we all" refers to my alternate selves. And I don't even think the words "we all" is what irks a lot of people, but rather that the comment said that Sapience was the best, and a few extremely hateful and vocal people don't agree with that and so then harass me personally for my support of Sapience.

    Zitat Zitat von Vandervahn Beitrag anzeigen
    Lastly, you will have to choose what you want. If you let yourself get irked by words, then you could choose not to put out such specific opinions. Strong opinions will ALWAYS be attackable, whichever way they go. And it gets even worse when your opinion is not reasoned, such as is the case when you admit to not knowing any other CMs
    Which is the reason for this thread. To see what Turbine would prefer I do. For little bitty things, is a small reminder acceptable? For moderate things, perhaps I should start PMing instead of posting publicly? I've already stated that for serious things I will use the report button and not say a word in public or private (since for those serious things it's usually pretty clear the offender won't care anyway).

    As for the last line, it's not a bad or even inaccurate thing. If I've only ever had colby jack cheese, I can say with full truthfulness that colby jack is the best. Statements like that are always subjective to one's own experiences. And until I've tried every single cheese under the sun, it will remain subjective. And then even once I have tried them all, it is still subjective. And while I don't mean to compare Sapience to a wedge of cheese, the same principle applies. You probably have a favorite CM. But have you played every single MMO out there and interacted with every CM out there? Does that in any way hinder or invalidate your opinion of who is the best? These are not fixed variables.
    R5 100 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
    R8 100 MNS Fayah/100 LM Siennah/100 HNT Dinenol/100 RK Dhurik
    100 CHN Alachas/85 CPT Dinfaerien/60 BUR Dhax/35 WDN Godoric
    R9 100 MNS Fayeh (alt Wilya) - Lonely Mountain Band @ Landroval

 

 

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