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  1. #1
    Registriert seit
    12.09.2013
    Beiträge
    38

    Farming Sambrog "Spammy exploit"

    Hello. To my experience the barrow downs instance with Sambrog is being overly farmed. I see lff messages to Sambrog all over the place. It is ridiculous because it inhibits people from doing a more varied distribution of instances. This is due to unbalanced loot tables versus accessability or difficulty or time requirement to do the instance, I don't know the exact factor. I am sure people could fill in the details what particular factors make it stand out as a prime "farming object".

    This type of behaviour has to stop. Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not an argument I find relevant because: The fact stands that it is inhibiting variety (see above) making the other, perhaps more interesting instances neglected and wasted. In order to run a less frequently run instance you are in need of a focused group, specialized in other purposes than those fullfilled by the Sambrog instance. Which can be hard for the people in smaller kins or those whithout kins or those who find it fun to run pickup groups.

    I am going to generalize here, beyond the Sambrog instance, because any instance can take it place given the right properties. I believe it is a design fault that is important to consider, albeit it is not easy to fix given that people are clever in finding the most optimal way of receiving rewards. In any case, tweaks should be done more frequently or faster to those instances that seem to get overly a lot of attention so other instances get to see more light.

    I hope to see more varied LFF messages in the future due to a more balanced set of instances. Perhaps with HD
    Geändert von Andala_Kanthos (18.09.2013 um 14:53 Uhr)

  2. #2
    Registriert seit
    25.03.2007
    Beiträge
    1.174
    The problem is, someone will always find the path which gives the greatest reward with the least effort. We're gamers here. It's inevitable that someone will game the game. Once that path of least resistance is found, everyone will jump on the bandwagon, either because they were also looking for the easiest path or because they can't find enough people to run anything else. The only way to prevent this would be to reinstitute locks on content at which time players will scream bloody murder.

    My suggestion would be to make two possible ways of unlocking an instance after completion, completing x number of other instances OR passage of y amount of time (usually 24 hours). That would allow people that really want to run a select few instances to do that, but would also allow casual players to rerun the same instance once a day if they didn't have time to run, say 6 or 8 other instances before repeating one. It's not a perfect solution but it would spread the runs out a bit (although it might only spread it as far as the quickest series of instances) and should keep the screaming to a dull roar.

    Another possible solution would be to create loot items that have to be combined with other instances' loot items to turn in for some barter item. Unfortunately, that would have to be fairly complex to guarantee that people would run more than two or three instances for the best combinations. Perhaps rotate which items drop from which instance so that "the best" combinations of instances would change from day to day.

    A third option would be to randomly select an instance or two on a daily basis and grant a small chance for the selected instance to drop a high value reward for that day. Then advertise the day's chosen instance both in the login screen and perhaps with the town criers "explorers find cache of treasure in _name_of_instance_location", etc.

    Obviously there are other ways to motivate the players to run more varied content, those are just a few possible (and not necessarily well thought out, they were just off the cuff) solutions to show that it is possible.
    Geändert von Garan (16.09.2013 um 12:55 Uhr)

  3. #3
    Registriert seit
    20.09.2010
    Beiträge
    1.302
    People will run whatever gives the most reward (seals or whatever) for their time. So you can't just change Sambrog to make it harder, or shut it down, because then everyone will just switch to farming whatever is the next easiest instance. Probably OE or school/library if my server's glff is any indicator.

    The simplest way would be to go to a daily loot model. Run any instance as much as you want, but you can only loot the chests once per day. Which would be fine with me but not with many other people. Beyond that, it gets complicated.

    Bottom line, if you want to run an obscure instance, just keep advertising. You'll get there eventually. People will still need those deeds or specific loot or whatever.

  4. #4
    Registriert seit
    09.04.2007
    Beiträge
    337
    Turbine time gated instances at one time. If I remember right, they reset either once or twice weekly. Perhaps this concept should be re-visited.

  5. #5
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    629
    Don't know what's the excuse on other servers,
    but I've found Sammy is the easiest way to get seals.
    Everyone wants seals for their FA's and gear.
    If they want to get variety going WITHOUT locking
    anything permanently, just give the game another
    counter (as there are many already).
    Run Sammy once and you will not get loot/seals
    until you've run at least 3 (or 4 or 5 or whatever)
    unrelated instances.

    edit: Must admit, Sammy is ridiculously easy...
    I suck as a healer, but even I can keep 5 hunters alive XD
    Maybe upping the difficulty can make the instance
    fun again AND disperse the crowd a bit...

  6. #6
    Registriert seit
    18.07.2011
    Beiträge
    178
    I work full-time and have limited leisure time. Sambrog is ideal for me as it can be done in 10 mins, is a guaranteed victory, and gives a good amount of meds and seals. If Sambrog was not how it is at the moment, I'd have to grind skirms solo, which I find incredibly dull and boring. Sambrog is ideal group content for people who want to grind meds and if it was changed it would impact the game negatively for me. I simply do not have the time to do mega long raids, where people drop constantly because it is getting late where they are etc. Long raids are probably just too long for many players who perhaps can not commit above an hour uninterrupted to the game. I also do not enjoy difficult content to be honest as I have very poor motor skills and get raynards in the winter which further exacerbates it. I am however all for harder/longer content with good reawards for the people who want it, but not at the expense of the people who don't.
    Geändert von Ellieni (16.09.2013 um 13:53 Uhr)

  7. #7
    Registriert seit
    11.10.2010
    Beiträge
    1.011
    Zitat Zitat von EvAmy Beitrag anzeigen
    edit: Must admit, Sammy is ridiculously easy...
    I suck as a healer, but even I can keep 5 hunters alive XD
    Sambrog is a DPS race. Going in with 5 hunters is "ezmode", as the kids say. If you want excitement, try winning Challenge with 5 characters with low damage output.

  8. #8
    Registriert seit
    18.09.2010
    Beiträge
    890
    Zitat Zitat von Vexendynamus Beitrag anzeigen
    Sambrog is a DPS race. Going in with 5 hunters is "ezmode", as the kids say. If you want excitement, try winning Challenge with 5 characters with low damage output.
    There is no combination of toons that can't complete Sambrog challenge at level 85, sure having 6 cappies would take a bit longer than most combinations, but every combination would get through. The most fun one would be 6 champs.

  9. #9
    Registriert seit
    06.12.2011
    Beiträge
    3.211
    Zitat Zitat von Traur Beitrag anzeigen
    The most fun one would be 6 champs.
    Or 2-3 champs

  10. #10
    Registriert seit
    02.05.2007
    Beiträge
    333

    Each play their own way

    Why worry about other people an how they play. Play the game the way you want and let them do the same. Everyone is paying one way or another to play so let each chose their own way to do it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009a600/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  11. #11
    Registriert seit
    20.11.2007
    Beiträge
    455
    Dont worry, you can always try to get a group for something that you would like to run, but remember in 2 months glff will be all like:


    GLFF Player1: 3/6 for Deeping Wall
    GLFF Player2: 7/12 for Defend the Hornburg
    GLFF Player3: lvl 10 godmode warden lff any HD battles dungeons
    GLFF Player4: lvl 8 to play Aragorn, invite meh.
    GLFF: <Collective sigh>

    Durrga R13 Hunter *Highguard of Numenor /Medwulf (semi-retired) R10 Champ / Vei the Burg R9


  12. #12
    Registriert seit
    07.01.2011
    Beiträge
    4.240
    Actually it will be more like

    Glff: Level 10 hunter invite me
    glff: no level 10 rk invite me
    glff: no my level 10 mini us leet invite
    glff: 11/12 for Big battle need any (high levels only)
    glff: But I iz upscaled on my hunter to high level does that count?
    Welcome to Maitenance Mode
    Please Add Draigoch Scales to the Skrimish Camp or Rep Barter Vendors in Dunland We are 30 Levels Past that Content
    And when the Devs make fun of how buggy it is in Bingo that should tell you something
    Peace Love and Tacos

  13. #13
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2012
    Beiträge
    1.833
    Zitat Zitat von Andala_Kanthos Beitrag anzeigen
    Hello. To my experience the barrow downs instance with Sambrog is being overly farmed. I see lff messages to Sambrog all over the place. It is ridiculous because it inhibits people from doing a more varied distribution of instances. This is due to unbalanced loot tables versus accessability or difficulty or time requirement to do the instance, I don't know the exact factor. I am sure people could fill in the details what particular factors make it stand out as a prime "farming object".

    This type of behaviour has to stop. Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not a valid argument because: The fact stands that it is inhibiting variety (see above) making the other, perhaps more interesting instances neglected and wasted. In order to run a less frequently run instance you are in need of a focused group, specialized in other purposes than those fullfilled by the Sambrog instance. Which can be hard for the people in smaller kins or those whithout kins or those who find it fun to run pickup groups.

    I am going to generalize here, beyond the Sambrog instance, because any instance can take it place given the right properties. I believe it is a design fault that is important to consider, albeit it is not easy to fix given that people are clever in finding the most optimal way of receiving rewards. In any case, tweaks should be done more frequently or faster to those instances that seem to get overly a lot of attention so other instances get to see more light.

    I hope to see more varied LFF messages in the future due to a more balanced set of instances. Perhaps with HD


    Sorry but why blame the players for grinding seals to get gear? Blame the makers of the grind.
    Founding Member of the Vocal Minority....

    "Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
    Captain Malcolm Reynolds

  14. #14
    Registriert seit
    28.07.2007
    Ort
    Seattle
    Beiträge
    709
    As long as the instances are static, people will farm the one that is easiest and fastest.

    A solution I proposed about a year ago involves some coding, but not a lot, on the part of Turbine. Essentially if an instance gets run a lot compared to others, it starts dropping less loot, marks, and medallions. Other, less frequently run instances start dropping more. Have limiters on it, say, 50% normal and 200% normal. Occasional human review to be sure things are not getting out of whack and revise what normal means on an occasional basis. Within a very short period of time, most instances will be run fairly equally.

    I think this gets what the OP wants, which I think is more instance diversity.

    Maybe someday Turbine can try this.
    Viniel, 100 Minstrel -- Tokomak, 100 Guard -- Valwin, 100 Captain -- Vinlad, 100 Burglar -- Vinius, 100 Champion -- (and others)

  15. #15
    Registriert seit
    08.12.2010
    Ort
    Sweden
    Beiträge
    3.312
    Zitat Zitat von Andala_Kanthos Beitrag anzeigen
    Hello. To my experience the barrow downs instance with Sambrog is being overly farmed. I see lff messages to Sambrog all over the place. It is ridiculous because it inhibits people from doing a more varied distribution of instances. This is due to unbalanced loot tables versus accessability or difficulty or time requirement to do the instance, I don't know the exact factor. I am sure people could fill in the details what particular factors make it stand out as a prime "farming object".

    This type of behaviour has to stop. Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not a valid argument because: The fact stands that it is inhibiting variety (see above) making the other, perhaps more interesting instances neglected and wasted. In order to run a less frequently run instance you are in need of a focused group, specialized in other purposes than those fullfilled by the Sambrog instance. Which can be hard for the people in smaller kins or those whithout kins or those who find it fun to run pickup groups.

    I am going to generalize here, beyond the Sambrog instance, because any instance can take it place given the right properties. I believe it is a design fault that is important to consider, albeit it is not easy to fix given that people are clever in finding the most optimal way of receiving rewards. In any case, tweaks should be done more frequently or faster to those instances that seem to get overly a lot of attention so other instances get to see more light.

    I hope to see more varied LFF messages in the future due to a more balanced set of instances. Perhaps with HD
    Hi! I've been after a certain item. 400 runs of Sambrog later, I still do not have it. I will continue to run the instance.

    Why does it have to stop?

    EDIT Here is a list of potential loot, if you feel like checking what you could use/need and perhaps run a few Sammies yourself.
    http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Great_Barrow:_Sambrog

  16. #16
    Registriert seit
    23.04.2011
    Beiträge
    6.019
    Zitat Zitat von sting-sethkan Beitrag anzeigen
    Why worry about other people an how they play. Play the game the way you want and let them do the same. Everyone is paying one way or another to play so let each chose their own way to do it.
    You win a gold star, sadly this mindset does not appear to be commonly accepted. If you don't play the way others believe you should, youre doing it wrong when in truth, youre winning. Sammy runs are simple, so are school runs how is it an "exploit" exactly when people run the instances as intended? Is the op inferring that their intent should be governed somehow?
    This type of behaviour has to stop. Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not a valid argument because: The fact stands that it is inhibiting variety (see above) making the other, perhaps more interesting instances neglected and wasted. In order to run a less frequently run instance you are in need of a focused group, specialized in other purposes than those fullfilled by the Sambrog instance. Which can be hard for the people in smaller kins or those whithout kins or those who find it fun to run pickup groups.
    People should read this series of proclomations very carefully, its a very dangerous mindset. What happens when you have this type of discussion is you have a small few, speaking in absolute terms of what should and shouldn't be allowed. Who's paying your sub?


  17. #17
    Registriert seit
    01.04.2008
    Beiträge
    3.203
    Zitat Zitat von Thorgrum Beitrag anzeigen
    You win a gold star, sadly this mindset does not appear to be commonly accepted. If you don't play the way others believe you should, youre doing it wrong when in truth, youre winning. Sammy runs are simple, so are school runs how is it an "exploit" exactly when people run the instances as intended? Is the op inferring that their intent should be governed somehow?
    I personally think people would burn out less and enjoy the game more if the instance loot were better balanced, to encourage more variety in the content folks see. I don't think running sambrog/lib/school repeatedly is in any way wrong or evil, but as a matter of game design I do think that such grinding of very few instances shouldn't be the absolute best way to get game rewards or currency. I'd actually rather see the "harder" content get better rewards to compensate for higher risk/time/etc. The problem with sambrog/school/lib isn't the reward per se. It is the total equation. It is the same issue that had people running GS always instead of FG or Forges, or SH instead of WP. Having more balanced rewards, or rewards for finishing all instances in a cluster within some time period, or steadily growing rewards for hitting the less frequented instances etc would work towards that. I'd not bring back locks though, they were rather a mess and somehow apparently caused issues with the scaling (I think some dev said such).

  18. #18
    Registriert seit
    23.04.2011
    Beiträge
    6.019
    Zitat Zitat von DelgonTheWise Beitrag anzeigen
    I personally think people would burn out less and enjoy the game more if the instance loot were better balanced, to encourage more variety in the content folks see. I don't think running sambrog/lib/school repeatedly is in any way wrong or evil, but as a matter of game design I do think that such grinding of very few instances shouldn't be the absolute best way to get game rewards or currency. I'd actually rather see the "harder" content get better rewards to compensate for higher risk/time/etc. The problem with sambrog/school/lib isn't the reward per se. It is the total equation. It is the same issue that had people running GS always instead of FG or Forges, or SH instead of WP. Having more balanced rewards, or rewards for finishing all instances in a cluster within some time period, or steadily growing rewards for hitting the less frequented instances etc would work towards that. I'd not bring back locks though, they were rather a mess and somehow apparently caused issues with the scaling (I think some dev said such).
    Fine, but the OPS point was a much broader one given the language he chose to use. My point wasn't pertaining to how turbine should design rewards, but rather why people should play the game they pay for the way they desire. The fact turbine has designed one instance or another to drop "X" isn't a major factor in my point.

  19. #19
    Registriert seit
    23.08.2012
    Beiträge
    68

    Sammy is free

    Even though we tend to assume a lvl cap player is either VIP or has bought every Expansion / Quest / Instance pack, none of you mentioned the fact that GB is free.
    And that's a factor to take into account in order to consider the amount of times the instances are farmed. Aside from the rewards, the low difficulty and the quickness to complete it, there are simply more players able to enter it.

  20. #20
    Registriert seit
    27.03.2011
    Ort
    The Prancing Pony, usually I'm drunk in a corner
    Beiträge
    3.299
    Zitat Zitat von Andala_Kanthos Beitrag anzeigen
    To my experience the barrow downs instance with Sambrog is being overly farmed.
    If it drops gold and good loot, it's overfarmed. How about instead of scaling content, we get *reasonable*, *creative*, and *new* content.
    Did everyone get a bugged signature? My BB code doesn't work anymore
    ____________________________

    Glorgnorbor, A Rock And A Hard Place, Stop by our Friday music shows! 4PM EST at the Bree West Gate on Dwarrowdelf!
    If a Malledhrim Soldier dies alone in the forest because of canceled quest, will it make a sound? ~Leixy

  21. #21
    Registriert seit
    11.07.2010
    Beiträge
    811
    It would be nice to see a repeatable (weekly) quest added for each instance cluster that had the challenge quest of each instance as the objective. Once completed it would grant a large number of seals, roughly equal to the number seals gained from doing all of the challenge quests or more depending on the cluster. Or a selection of items with seals as one of the options.

    While players will always grind the instance with the best return - an incentive to run a wide variety of instances would be a welcome addition.
    [u][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmEsCKAb7r0"]Sauron vs. Tom Bombadil[/url][/u][COLOR="Red"] [/color][COLOR="Orange"] A fun what-if video I hope brings a smile[/color][COLOR="Red"][/color]

  22. #22
    Registriert seit
    22.02.2007
    Ort
    Brandywine
    Beiträge
    2.226
    Zitat Zitat von Andala_Kanthos Beitrag anzeigen
    I hope to see more varied LFF messages in the future due to a more balanced set of instances. Perhaps with HD
    Than post some yourself. If you want to do lots of different instances than start your own group. If you sit around waiting for others to start groups than that's your fault. It doesn't have anything to do with sambrog.

  23. #23
    Registriert seit
    12.10.2010
    Ort
    Hamilton, NY
    Beiträge
    3.699
    I agree with Engine. If you don't like seeing so many Sambrog posts, run something else. Personally, I don't run Sambrog anymore ever. My E captain doesn't even have it unlocked, so any group I'm in can't run it either. Leads to a much more fun time.
    [CENTER][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/tindragon/Base.png[/IMG]
    Steam: Sneakeh Snake[/CENTER]

  24. #24
    Registriert seit
    12.09.2013
    Beiträge
    38
    Zitat Zitat von sting-sethkan Beitrag anzeigen
    Why worry about other people an how they play. Play the game the way you want and let them do the same. Everyone is paying one way or another to play so let each chose their own way to do it.
    You are right, of course. The game creates the environment that the players take advantage of. The game creators are the prime target of my post. For example, you lff for a particular instance, that is your decision. I want to alter the way you decide the instance you want to do so it be more varied. I do not want to force anyone to do a more varied set of instances just for the sake of variety, that is not my point.
    Zitat Zitat von Jillymala Beitrag anzeigen
    Sorry but why blame the players for grinding seals to get gear? Blame the makers of the grind.
    Yep, I am looking for ideas from the community that the game developers can take advantage of so they can create an environment that makes for more varied lff messages DUE TO GAME CHANGES, not forcing players to do this and that.

    Zitat Zitat von Macroscian Beitrag anzeigen
    Hi! I've been after a certain item. 400 runs of Sambrog later, I still do not have it. I will continue to run the instance.

    Why does it have to stop?

    EDIT Here is a list of potential loot, if you feel like checking what you could use/need and perhaps run a few Sammies yourself.
    http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Great_Barrow:_Sambrog
    If you are after a particular loot item, 400 runs of a single instance is not the greatest way the game offers loot to you. You are determined to get your loot, that is good. If you were encouraged (through game design) to do a more varied set of instances it would make me happy!

    Zitat Zitat von Viniel Beitrag anzeigen
    As long as the instances are static, people will farm the one that is easiest and fastest.
    A solution I proposed about a year ago involves some coding, but not a lot, on the part of Turbine. Essentially if an instance gets run a lot compared to others, it starts dropping less loot, marks, and medallions. Other, less frequently run instances start dropping more. Have limiters on it, say, 50% normal and 200% normal. Occasional human review to be sure things are not getting out of whack and revise what normal means on an occasional basis. Within a very short period of time, most instances will be run fairly equally.

    I think this gets what the OP wants, which I think is more instance diversity.

    Maybe someday Turbine can try this.
    Yep suggestions like this is what I am looking for.

    Zitat Zitat von Garan Beitrag anzeigen
    The problem is, someone will always find the path which gives the greatest reward with the least effort. We're gamers here. It's inevitable that someone will game the game. Once that path of least resistance is found, everyone will jump on the bandwagon, either because they were also looking for the easiest path or because they can't find enough people to run anything else. The only way to prevent this would be to reinstitute locks on content at which time players will scream bloody murder.

    My suggestion would be to make two possible ways of unlocking an instance after completion, completing x number of other instances OR passage of y amount of time (usually 24 hours). That would allow people that really want to run a select few instances to do that, but would also allow casual players to rerun the same instance once a day if they didn't have time to run, say 6 or 8 other instances before repeating one. It's not a perfect solution but it would spread the runs out a bit (although it might only spread it as far as the quickest series of instances) and should keep the screaming to a dull roar.

    Another possible solution would be to create loot items that have to be combined with other instances' loot items to turn in for some barter item. Unfortunately, that would have to be fairly complex to guarantee that people would run more than two or three instances for the best combinations. Perhaps rotate which items drop from which instance so that "the best" combinations of instances would change from day to day.

    A third option would be to randomly select an instance or two on a daily basis and grant a small chance for the selected instance to drop a high value reward for that day. Then advertise the day's chosen instance both in the login screen and perhaps with the town criers "explorers find cache of treasure in _name_of_instance_location", etc.

    Obviously there are other ways to motivate the players to run more varied content, those are just a few possible (and not necessarily well thought out, they were just off the cuff) solutions to show that it is possible.
    Great suggestions and thoughts. I don't want to murder anyone just pushing them gently in a direction that the game takes us. I really believe something can be done through the use some well thought out suggestion such as Garan's.

  25. #25
    Registriert seit
    22.02.2007
    Ort
    Brandywine
    Beiträge
    2.226
    TS, no solution is needed because there is no actual problem.

    The problem is in your head. If you want to run specific instances then start advertising for them in glff.
    I was just on brandywine last night and people were running Annuminus, and many 3-man's. I didn't see any Sammy.

    There is already incentives in place to encourage players to run each different instance. Sorry but this thread about Sammy has no truck.

 

 
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