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  1. #1
    Avatar von Ramen
    Ramen ist offline Community Specialist
    Turbine Community Team
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    06.07.2006
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    489

    Exclamation Kinship Themes

    Greetings! We’ve noticed a frequently occurring topic with Kinship themes in the LOTRO community, and wanted to take a moment to clarify our overall policy on this issue.


    In-Game Policy
    As per section 6 of our End User License Agreement (http://lotro.turbine.com/article/312):

    Content created by you must not: (a) infringe any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, or other proprietary right of any person or entity; (b) be profane, obscene, indecent or violate any law or regulation; (c) defame, abuse, harass, threaten or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others; (d) incite discrimination, hate or violence towards one person or a group because of their race, religion, nationality, ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender, or insult the victims of crimes against humanity by contesting the existence of those crimes…
    What does this mean for Kinships created with a theme that fits one of the above categories? Well, first, it does not violate the rules of this agreement to create such a Kinship. However, such a Kinship must understand that they cannot refuse entry into their ranks based solely on their chosen theme, because that would actually be another form of discrimination (i.e., a religiously-themed kinship cannot deny participation by another player purely because that player is not of that religion; the same applies for race, nationality, ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender).

    What about recruitment for such a Kinship in open chat? Players ARE allowed to make such a recruitment offer in chat. For example, “X Kinship invites you to join our Kinship, please send me a tell for more information.” You may not say, “X Kinship invites you to join our Kinship. You must be X, all others need not apply,” where X is a theme that falls into any of the aforementioned categories. Other players should not then engage in discussions on topic X just because a Kinship of that theme made a recruitment invitation in /ooc. Harassment surrounding such an offer will also be handled accordingly. Also, as per section 13 of the EULA, you may not create anti-X Kinships:

    You may not form or participate in groups whose ideology is based upon or resembles anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-sexual orientation, nationalistic, racist or sexist philosophies.
    Forum Policy
    Our policy on the official forums mirrors our in-game policy. Players may post recruitment threads for themed Kinships as discussed above, but should refrain from discussions on those themes. As per our Forum Guidelines (http://forums.lotro.com/announcement.php?f=3&a=1):

    12. Discussion of religious or political topics is prohibited on the Forums.

    17. Users must not violate, or promote the violation of, Turbine’s terms of service, codes of conduct or end user license agreements.
    We hope the above clarifications will help our community understand the rules and reasoning behind both in-game GM and forum moderation enforcement decisions on this topic. These policies are not arbitrary, and are put in place to ensure the most fair and enjoyable gaming environment possible for you, our collective community.

    Thank you for your cooperation! If you have questions, please post them below.

  2. #2
    Registriert seit
    01.03.2007
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    1.385

    Re: Kinship Themes

    So 'age' is not on your 'no descrimination' list?

    Seems odd.

  3. #3
    Registriert seit
    17.01.2007
    Ort
    Parts Unknown
    Beiträge
    278

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Zitat Zitat von Ulrek Beitrag anzeigen
    So 'age' is not on your 'no descrimination' list?

    Seems odd.
    The game itself does so with the Teen Rating.

    Age discrimination is everywhere, from Senor Citizen Discounts to "Children under 5 eat free!"

    Sometimes it's in your favor, sometimes it's not.
    BRAR?

  4. #4
    Registriert seit
    01.02.2007
    Ort
    Lafayette, IN
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    1.601

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Race, of course, only refers to real-life player's race, right? You can legally have all-dwarf Kinships and the like, right?

  5. #5
    Registriert seit
    16.02.2007
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    45

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Nicely explained Ramen, thank you.

    In light of this I'd like to offer a word of caution to members and recruiters from Christian-themed kinships ( I also am a member of one such kinship):

    - Please be very careful NOT to include being a Christian as a requirement of membership for this would be considered discrimination based-on religious affiliation.

    - Please DO be sure to let any prospective members know that they WILL encounter much discussion within the kinship chat and/or amongst the members in support of the shared Christian theme. If this is going to bother them during their in-game playtime, they may want to consider another kinship.

    -Please DO be sure to let any prospective members know that profanity, lewd speech, inappropriate behavior and bashing or defaming of the shared Christian theme and its associated sacred values and terms (God, Jesus Christ, prayer, the Bible, the Cross, etc) will NOT be tolerated and will be grounds for dismissal from the kinship.

    I think by using these techniques we who enjoy participation in Christian-themed kinships can keep membership open to all and yet have the administrative freedom to be able to keep out folks who only want to join a kinship to start trouble from within.

  6. #6
    Registriert seit
    16.01.2007
    Ort
    Louisiana
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    10.428

    Re: Kinship Themes

    I know that this is the world we live in today and Turbine is just flowing with the tide, but this is such nonsense. Why in the world should a kinship not be able to restrict its membership based on ANY category they chose? For Eru's sake, we have IN GAME, race-restricted kinship charters! Yet if I wanted to (and of course I do not want to) make a kinship of players based on their shared real-life race, I would be bounced off the server faster than you can say "Don Imus".
    At least we know for sure now that Turbine's lawyers aren't any braver than most other spineless politically correct corporate lackeys anywhere else.

    Zitat Zitat von Ramen
    ...they cannot refuse entry into their ranks based solely on their chosen theme...
    For practical purposes (based on Ramen's own language here), if you want to set up a restrictive kinship, feel free to deny membership to someone on that basis, just make sure to tell them that the real reason is because you don't like the color leggings they wear. At least that gives you a "legal" excuse.
    Arda Shrugged:Elendilstone

  7. #7
    Registriert seit
    13.03.2007
    Ort
    Quebec
    Beiträge
    172

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Seems clearer now. I still have one grey spot.

    Can I have a "French Kinship" and asking that only french people may join it?

    I'm not sure if it falls in nationality, ethnicity discrimination or it's just considered a communication issue.

    Thanks

  8. #8
    Registriert seit
    24.01.2007
    Ort
    Augusta, Ga
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    182

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Might want to say "french speaking only kinship rather than just "french only." The latter refers to the nationality thing they are speaking of while the first is just a language barrier thing that is probably understandable... Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

  9. #9
    Avatar von Ramen
    Ramen ist offline Community Specialist
    Turbine Community Team
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    489

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Zitat Zitat von Sevok Beitrag anzeigen
    Race, of course, only refers to real-life player's race, right? You can legally have all-dwarf Kinships and the like, right?
    Yes, we are ok with "Hobbit-only" kinships, for example, because ANYONE can create a Hobbit. You are not excluding any player.

  10. #10
    Avatar von Ramen
    Ramen ist offline Community Specialist
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    Re: Kinship Themes

    Zitat Zitat von madscientist254 Beitrag anzeigen
    Might want to say "french speaking only kinship rather than just "french only." The latter refers to the nationality thing they are speaking of while the first is just a language barrier thing that is probably understandable... Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
    Technically, a player who does not speak French can demand entry into a French-speaking kinship, but its entirely possible that their request would not be understood.

    As with any such forcing of rights, there is typically an alterior motive (griefing) that will very quickly provide all the grounds necessary to deny entry or remove someone from your kinship. The only stipulation here is that you cannot, as per the EULA that everyone agreed to upon subscribing to LOTRO, deny entry to your group based solely on race, religion, nationality, ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender.
    Geändert von Ramen (01.05.2007 um 16:51 Uhr)

  11. #11
    Avatar von Ramen
    Ramen ist offline Community Specialist
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    Re: Kinship Themes

    Zitat Zitat von gildhur Beitrag anzeigen
    I know that this is the world we live in today and Turbine is just flowing with the tide, but this is such nonsense.
    You are entitled to your opinion on that of course. All we are doing here is making clear the terms of the EULA that all players have agreed to abide by.

    Rules are rules.

  12. #12
    Registriert seit
    24.02.2007
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    62

    Re: Kinship Themes

    of course using the hobbit only example. anyone could make a female char to get into a female only kinship. or make a dark skinned char to get into a kin themed on dark skinned dwarves. Its not discriminating against the real persons race/gender. But id think it would still be considered a "bad thing" to do because it could be easilly misunderstood.

  13. #13
    Registriert seit
    17.01.2007
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    655

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Ok, what if you wanted to start a kinship that didn't allow illegal aliens? Would that fall under the nationality restriction, since you're only allowing people of your nation in?

    If that's so, what if you expanded it so that people from other countries are allowed in, but only if they are living in the country with which they are considered a citizen? Does that still fall under the nationality restriction?

    Ok, so if the above is true, what if we made contact with an alien race tomorrow, could we keep them out, if the alien race wasn't humanoid? Can we restrict based on species? I mean they could be jerks, you know, and not fun to play with.

    /sarcasm off

    Just messing around, trying to poke holes in the EULA, and the protests today happened to be the last article I read before coming here.

  14. #14
    Registriert seit
    19.09.2010
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    462

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Zitat Zitat von Bruiserk Beitrag anzeigen
    Ok, what if you wanted to start a kinship that didn't allow illegal aliens? Would that fall under the nationality restriction, since you're only allowing people of your nation in?
    I know you're not serious, but "illegal" is not a nation.

  15. #15
    Registriert seit
    17.02.2007
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    131

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Well thanks for finally making the rules clear.

    I may not agree with them, but there's nothing I can do about it, I respect you guys for your choices and I'll flow with it.

    One question: (I'll try and make this a light one, i.e. replace bio with something religious or profane) Lets say one of our rules is we can't use the /bio emote because it's inappropriate. Since we need open membership a member joins. "Bioman" attends the next event and during it he goes Bio multiple times. We remove him from our clan and he calls it fowl because we can't discriminate because of what he did.

    I'm on the advisary council of a kinship and I want to make sure we don't get introuble for what we do.

    ^just for the record, I love that Emote

  16. #16
    Registriert seit
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    3.679

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Zitat Zitat von Eihen Beitrag anzeigen
    One question: (I'll try and make this a light one, i.e. replace bio with something religious or profane) Lets say one of our rules is we can't use the /bio emote because it's inappropriate. Since we need open membership a member joins. "Bioman" attends the next event and during it he goes Bio multiple times. We remove him from our clan and he calls it fowl because we can't discriminate because of what he did.
    One would suppose that if you were clear in your charter that the /bio emote was not allowed in your membership, and Bioman persisted in that behavior even after being warned, then he has no valid basis for his complaint. After all, his emote behavior is completely under his control; you're not kicking him out because the PLAYER has a Y chromosome, or resides south of the equator, or anything that he doesn't have complete and immediate control over.

    I think the terms are there to keep people from discriminating based on the player. Frankly, anything having to do with the behavior of the player is perfectly fair game. You're allowed to kick annoying people out of your kinship, or people who node-steal, or constantly dominate kinship chat with pointless chatter and won't shut up. Your example is a purely social discrimination that I believe is within the rules.

    And by the way, I love that emote too!

  17. #17
    Registriert seit
    17.01.2007
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    655

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Zitat Zitat von Shukar Beitrag anzeigen
    One would suppose that if you were clear in your charter that the /bio emote was not allowed in your membership, and Bioman persisted in that behavior even after being warned, then he has no valid basis for his complaint. After all, his emote behavior is completely under his control; you're not kicking him out because the PLAYER has a Y chromosome, or resides south of the equator, or anything that he doesn't have complete and immediate control over.

    I think the terms are there to keep people from discriminating based on the player. Frankly, anything having to do with the behavior of the player is perfectly fair game. You're allowed to kick annoying people out of your kinship, or people who node-steal, or constantly dominate kinship chat with pointless chatter and won't shut up. Your example is a purely social discrimination that I believe is within the rules.

    And by the way, I love that emote too!
    Wait....wouldn't that be discriminating against annoying people? They may not be able to control their irritating behavior?

    /sarcasm off (again)

  18. #18
    Registriert seit
    07.05.2007
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    3

    Re: Kinship Themes

    What I don't get is all the christian only kinships thinly-veiled as all welcoming.

    If I was in a christian only kinship and started talking about facts and reason I would be removed. They even post here on how to get around the EULA so they can have their own little divisive kinships.

    /shrug

    If I started an Atheist only kinship would that be anti-religious?

    kinship missions statement: We will be discussing facts and hypothesis based on evidence and debunking fairy tales in the real world every day. And doing pie runs.

  19. #19
    Registriert seit
    02.05.2007
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    1.531

    Re: Kinship Themes

    IMHO, your mission as described is anti-religious since 'debunking fairy tales' will likely be /reported as a thinly veiled reference to debunking religion and advocating atheism. See, it's not atheism as the nexus of the kinship that's the problem, it's the proseltyzing, advocating, or other hostile-seeming activities that are the problem.

    And it couldn't be atheist only as that would be discriminatory.

    If you said something like 'Come join like-minded fellow atheists for fun, pies and provocative discussions' that would probably pass.

  20. #20
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    17.04.2007
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    Re: Kinship Themes

    I was referred here by Patience. I'd send her a PM asking directly, but since she put me on her ignore list, and I can't send her PM's...

    Is making an atheist kinship within the rules, and what would be the limits to this? Would, for example, the title "Aethists of Gondor" be inappropriate?

    I tried to post this on a separate thread (didn't know this one existed..), but I just got linked here, instead of the question actually being answered. And the OP is far too generalized.

  21. #21
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    02.05.2007
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    Re: Kinship Themes

    This would likely depend on the exact wording of the kinship title, the guild's mission statement, recruiting tactics, etc. My reading of the TOS says "yes, you can make an atheist kinship," but know going in that you have to tread a very fine line, that you'll have to let in non-atheists, you can't advocate atheism in open channels and you're going to be a /report magnet for even the smallest slip up.

    Most of the Christian kinships have had a dev post in their thread offering some clarification of expectations, so if you really want to have an atheist kinship, make a thread and see what happens. If you're over the line, you'll hear about it.

    This being said, from your original post it sounds like you want to do this just for the sake of tit-for-tat controversy. Am I misreading you?

  22. #22
    Registriert seit
    17.04.2007
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    234

    Re: Kinship Themes

    Zitat Zitat von Saesa Beitrag anzeigen
    This would likely depend on the exact wording of the kinship title, the guild's mission statement, recruiting tactics, etc. My reading of the TOS says "yes, you can make an atheist kinship," but know going in that you have to tread a very fine line, that you'll have to let in non-atheists, you can't advocate atheism in open channels and you're going to be a /report magnet for even the smallest slip up.

    Most of the Christian kinships have had a dev post in their thread offering some clarification of expectations, so if you really want to have an atheist kinship, make a thread and see what happens. If you're over the line, you'll hear about it.

    This being said, from your original post it sounds like you want to do this just for the sake of tit-for-tat controversy. Am I misreading you?
    Why I'd want to do it isn't the point, or the issue. You're the one assuming things. *shrug*

  23. #23
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    Re: Kinship Themes

    Actually, the 'why' is rather relevant as the TOS bit about 'anti-religion' has to do in part with intentions.

    <shrug>

    Since you're not interested in freindly assessments of your question, I'll toddle on.

    Cheers,

    Saesa

  24. #24
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    04.04.2007
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    4.451

    Re: Kinship Themes

    What about the guild whor efuse entry to anyone who does not want to sign up for the guild's forums or who will not use ventrilo? Seriously I was booted from a guild because I did not want to install some chat program when there is already one in the game. Should I hire a lawyer? (heh kiddin on last part)

  25. #25
    Registriert seit
    18.09.2010
    Beiträge
    210

    Re: Kinship Themes

    The kinship charter items in game create kinships that have different rank names based on the theme of Mixed, Man, Elf, Dwarf, and Hobbit. Any race can still join any kinship, as far as the coding of that item goes. But yes, chief point there is that the race of one's character never need rely on the race of that character's controller.

    Extraterrestrials are people, too.

    Gareth, couple points: firstly, they're completely in their rights. Secondly, while I'm personally not so fanatic about Ventrilo/TeamSpeak/etc., I very much understand their concerns. For one, the in-game voice chat pales greatly by comparison, distorting audio much more than a paid-for voice chat server. Further, I've seen a lot of people that rely on voice chat so much that they seem incapable of communicating with effort greater than pushing a single button and are totally oblivious to any of the words in their chat box. I think a better question for you would be why you would even want to be in such a kinship when you obviously have a very different viewpoint on the issue.

    And thank you, Ramen. It's good to see a proper place to discuss this instead of all the threads whining about the people whining about the kinships that whine about people's ... ah, hell, I can't even keep it straight any more.
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/silverlode/eve/"]Eve[/URL] of Silverlode (65 Guardian)
    Zatherine of Brandywine (44 Guardian, Angmar Closed Beta)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/06205000000000500/01008/signature.png]Eve[/charsig]

 

 
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