Eagles! Y u no fly Frodo to Mordor?!

[ReallyFat]

The Eagles thing again? I'm all for discussion, but ain't this particular dead horse been beat to a bloody mess?

Agreed, the only worse #### than this would be the Balrogs and Wings ####. If I one day have a death wish, I will post that up here so you rip me apart. But personally I believe they do.

[Egorvlad]

Forget wings, I'm always amazed how some people dare to deny the obvious fact that the Balrog wears fluffy bedroom slippers!

[Seschat]

One answer I have found that makes sense (WARNING: Site is not in any way, shape or form safe for work, family, or small pets)

http://oglaf.com/ornithology/

(And yes, I know it's a Hobbit joke, not a LOTR joke)

[Calmor3112]

the Eagles, as Maiar, could have been corruptive and dangerous.

Wait, since when are the eagles of Manwe maiar?
Please explain.

[Aideani]

Wait, since when are the eagles of Manwe maiar?
Please explain.

They weren't!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Eagles explains perfectly well that they weren't, too!!!!

[WBS]

Wait, since when are the eagles of Manwe maiar?
Please explain.

They aren't and Wilros wasn't suggesting they were. The way it's punctuated is a clue but I agree it's not perfectly clear.

Reread that part as, "the Eagles, like the Maia, could have been corruptive and dangerous."

[WBS]

They weren't!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Eagles explains perfectly well that they weren't, too!!!!

Actually, it doesn't, and the last chapter in that link states that Tolkien suggested they were.

In some of his texts Tolkien speculated that these great Eagles were actually Maiar in bird-shape, as he felt it unlikely Ilúvatar would grant feär to animals.

[Calmor3112]

They weren't!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Eagles explains perfectly well that they weren't, too!!!!

You realize that, that is not a completely reliable source.
Anyone with an account can edit that.

P.S. you don't have to be so rude and in-your-face

[Wilros]

Wait, since when are the eagles of Manwe maiar?
Please explain.

That was a quote taken from Tolkien Gateway, so I’m not sure whether the author intended it to read as the eagles being like the maiar, or actually being maiar themselves.

I haven’t done a lot of digging into this particular topic, but I suspect that, like many such mysteries in Arda, this is something we can’t fully solve if Tolkien didn’t settle it explicitly. And it seems to me that there would be issues with either answer: if the eagles are maiar, they would be a creation directly from the mind of Illuvatar, so why are the eagles said to be ‘devised’ by Manwe? But if they are not maiar, and were instead created by Manwe, wouldn’t this be akin to Aule’s making of the dwarves, which doesn’t seem like something Manwe would be wont to do as he doesn’t stray outside the will of Illuvatar. So I’m a bit confused myself…

[Cjdobs]

WHY THE EAGLES COULDN'T JUST FLY TO MORDOR:

The Eagles are not affected by the tidings of humans, they just don't care. Their pride would keep them from simply delivering people to Mordor like a taxi. The only reason they help Gandalf is because Gwaihir (The Eagle Lord) owes him a favor. But he only owed Gandalf a small favor, not winning the entire war. The main reason the eagles didn't help more is this: The Maia are there to guide. Gandalf is a Maia, he is a teacher to the people of middle earth, and just like as a teacher doesn't take your exams for you, he didn't fight their fights for them. Gandalf was so powerful that he was forbidden from challenging Sauron directly. He could've stood outside the gates of Minas Tirith, farted and every orc there would have dropped dead. Same principle applies to Gwaihir, he can only guide not win the war for them.

Yes. Gandalf's fart is that powerful of a move.

In Hipster terms:
Eagles don't care 'bout us humans and dey ain't taxis. The wizards and eagles are so buff, they could defeat Mordor on their own. Dey like teachers. But dey only dere to guide, not fight. Plus dem eagles are too cool to be taxis.

EDIT: Also, it would've made for one of the worst and most boring books ever.

Gandalf, wind breaking skills aside, was an Istari (one of five) - it is not known that he is a Maia - only speculated because of the power they have and the link between the character Olorin (listed as the wisest of the Maiar) and the early pseudonym of Gandalf being Olorin. Though, if he was Olorin 'The wisest', this doesn't explain Saruman's lofty position on Middle Earth.

Sauron was a Maia tainted by Melkor.

This forbidding of power I always understood was to stop the Istari themselves having power over others - something Saruman obviously failed at and became corrupted causing his removal from the order of Istari.

It's all speculation anyway. As you say, would have been a boring book if in Chapter one Gandalf flies an Eagle straight to Mordor, stands outside Barad Dur and lets one off, wiping out an entire Orc Expeditionary force equipping itself for war, then casually flicks the ring into the fiery chasms of Mount Doom...don't think I would have enjoyed that plot much

[Wolfhelm]

it is not known that he is a Maia - only speculated because of the power they have and the link between the character Olorin

The five Istari are definitely Maia, that has never been in dispute.

[Nymphonic]

It's all speculation anyway. As you say, would have been a boring book if in Chapter one Gandalf flies an Eagle straight to Mordor, stands outside Barad Dur and lets one off, wiping out an entire Orc Expeditionary force equipping itself for war, then casually flicks the ring into the fiery chasms of Mount Doom...don't think I would have enjoyed that plot much

I remember about 20 years ago when I was watching a Jet LI movie one of my wife's uncles asked me why didn't the bad guy or Jet Li just bring a gun, and I answered "because if they did that they could not have the Kung Fu fight" lol.

[Cjdobs]

The five Istari are definitely Maia, that has never been in dispute.

Hey, If you and yours don't dispute it, that is fair enough. I know plenty of Tolkien fans and scholars that do.

I don't dispute the Istari were sent from Valinor because I have read that in his works and its a fair assumption to make they are Maiar (plural of Maia - that's not in dispute either ).

Was just pointing out, the 'maybe'....

It was heavily disputed at Onering.net, Ringbearer and other forums for years and still is. Be interested to see a definitive from the text that states they are if anyone can share...

[BirdofHermes]

Hey, If you and yours don't dispute it, that is fair enough. I know plenty of Tolkien fans and scholars that do.

I don't dispute the Istari were sent from Valinor because I have read that in his works and its a fair assumption to make they are Maiar (plural of Maia - that's not in dispute either ).

Was just pointing out, the 'maybe'....

It was heavily disputed at Onering.net, Ringbearer and other forums for years and still is. Be interested to see a definitive from the text that states they are if anyone can share...

Men, therefore, grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, they often consorted).
Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.
- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Essay on the Istari
and J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Unfinished Tales part 4, chaper II The Istari

"Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."
But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë.
Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice).
But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.
- J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Unfinished Tales part 4, chaper II The Istari

[Witch0King]

The bottom line is that the eagles could, but they didn't. Tolkien didn't think it well enough through, like many other things.

[Calmor3112]

Why has no one thought about the fact that Sauron would've put protective spells around mordor.

[Calmor3112]

And.

To stop the Istari themselves having power over others - something Saruman obviously failed at and became corrupted causing his removal from the order of Istari.

Since when was Sauron an istari?

[Cjdobs]

And.

Since when was Sauron an istari?

Never said he was - I said Sauron was a Maia. I then said Saruman was an Istari.

[Cjdobs]

Men, therefore, grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, they often consorted).
Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.
- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Essay on the Istari
and J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Unfinished Tales part 4, chaper II The Istari

"Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."
But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë.
Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice).
But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.
- J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Unfinished Tales part 4, chaper II The Istari

I stand corrected (said the man in the orthopaedic shoes).

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years."

This all started because I said 'may have been' not 'is'.... Both Gandalf and Saruman are referred to primarily as Istari in most reference books and that they 'may have been Maiar' - that's all I'm saying

Thank you for sharing. Nice work

[Wolfhelm]

Maiar (plural of Maia - that's not in dispute either ).

Was just pointing out, the 'maybe'....

It was heavily disputed at Onering.net, Ringbearer and other forums for years and still is. Be interested to see a definitive from the text that states they are if anyone can share...

They've been disputing something with such an obvious answer, for years even, must be very argumentative people over there

I accept the spelling correction though, my bad.

[Nymphonic]

Agreed, the only worse #### than this would be the Balrogs and Wings ####. If I one day have a death wish, I will post that up here so you rip me apart. But personally I believe they do.

I have read LOTR once a year since 1983, and I have always pictured the Balrog with wings. I'm not saying they do. I'm just saying that's the image that pops in my head ever since 1983.

[Cjdobs]

I have read LOTR once a year since 1983, and I have always pictured the Balrog with wings. I'm not saying they do. I'm just saying that's the image that pops in my head ever since 1983.

"The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings"

I believe that little passage is the culprit!

[Cjdobs]

They've been disputing something with such an obvious answer, for years even, must be very argumentative people over there

I accept the spelling correction though, my bad.

Nah, my bad for playing Grammar Nazi (hangs head in shame). And you're right, lots of squabbling 'over there' ...and way too many 'swoon' threads

Something struck me yesterday about the Maiar thing, It's like the planet Pluto. We were taught at school it's a planet. My son now tells me it's a large star and not a planet - access to more information changes the 'facts' I grew up with.

Every day is a learning opportunity

[GarethB]

Well, either your son is reasonably young or has a pretty bad science teacher. Pluto is not a star (hint, stars are made of mostly hydrogen gas and are on fire, like the sun). Pluto is not made of hydrogen gas and it is not on fire, ergo it is not a star.

Back to Gandalf and the eagles. While Gandalf and the eagles may have bouts of gas from time to time, they are not made of gas and not on fire, therefore they are also not stars.

I hope this has clarified things adequately for everyone.

[BirdofHermes]

Well, either your son is reasonably young or has a pretty bad science teacher. Pluto is not a star (hint, stars are made of mostly hydrogen gas and are on fire, like the sun). Pluto is not made of hydrogen gas and it is not on fire, ergo it is not a star.

Back to Gandalf and the eagles. While Gandalf and the eagles may have bouts of gas from time to time, they are not made of gas and not on fire, therefore they are also not stars.

I hope this has clarified things adequately for everyone.

Indeed Pluto is not a star, not even close.
And I must point out that stars are technically not 'on fire' either.
As far as we know it doesn't burn at all, it's in a state of nuclear fusion, basically a large ball of plasma comprised mostly of helium and hydrogen. But it's worth noting that the fusion part allows for much heavier elements to be formed inside it, making it more unstable as time goes by (not that we'll notice that on our timescale).