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  1. #1
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    85 And useless?

    In my earlier cappy days (i.e 1-60ish) in groups captains were awesome! but it seems to me at 85 cappys aren't very valuable to the groups. Sure the buffs and occasional bubble are nice, but every cappy i see on my server is fully decked out for heals, yet easily gets out-healed by the RK or mini. I very well understand we're the support role, which is why I picked a cappy. But I've seen many groups pick anything but a captain (or a burg for that matter, but thats another thread.) I'm hoping with the class revamp some of the classes get nerfed a little bit and our buffs become a little more useful. Once we pop Motivating and a tactic on everyone we might as well leave group, Shield/blade/song bro gets rendered useless when you have 2 champs a mini and a rk in the group. With something like 10k damage every second or 2 and 20k worth of heals in a raid where do we come in? buffing that damage up to 11k? heals up to 21k? I could be totally wrong. Just feel a little left out and useless nowadays.

    Soloing however is totally different..
    Geändert von OruiFarimur (21.05.2013 um 00:41 Uhr)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000002c9618/signature.png]Farimur[/charsig]

  2. #2
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    If you're talking about 6-mans then well, most of those are simply too easy these days to need a cappy. Though cappy can actually fill in as main healer on some of the trash-heavy content as Rallying Cry is an awesome skill, maybe the best group-healing skill in the game. And if you think you'd only provide a 10% damage buff to your group you need to recheck your skills, should be more like 15-25% with Telling Mark, War Cry, Blade Brother Fellowship buffs, Oathbreakers, ...

    Cappies become important when the content is difficult, like T2 raids where you may actually need your in-combat rezzes, IHW+LS or SotD.

    TL;DR: The problem is not the class but the content.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
    Playing now: Hellcat / King Tiger / GW Panther / IS / KV-5 / M4 Sherman and more

  3. #3
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    A good captain is always welcome in my groups.
    In most of the 3-man is the best healing option.
    In PvP are awesome to group with.

    I LOVE CAPTAINS!
    [IMG]http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/254/6rpe.jpg[/IMG][FONT=Verdana]
    Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Felathurin aka Brunt)[/FONT]

  4. #4
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    Zitat Zitat von OruiFarimur Beitrag anzeigen
    In my earlier cappy days (i.e 1-60ish) in groups captains were awesome! but it seems to me at 85 cappys aren't very valuable to the groups. Sure the buffs and occasional bubble are nice, but every cappy i see on my server is fully decked out for heals, yet easily gets out-healed by the RK or mini. I very well understand we're the support role, which is why I picked a cappy. But I've seen many groups pick anything but a captain (or a burg for that matter, but thats another thread.) I'm hoping with the class revamp some of the classes get nerfed a little bit and our buffs become a little more useful. Once we pop Motivating and a tactic on everyone we might as well leave group, Shield/blade/song bro gets rendered useless when you have 2 champs a mini and a rk in the group. With something like 10k damage every second or 2 and 20k worth of heals in a raid where do we come in? buffing that damage up to 11k? heals up to 21k? I could be totally wrong. Just feel a little left out and useless nowadays.

    Soloing however is totally different..
    I dont know what nonsense to comment first...
    It is probably your fault but even more the fault of people around you on your server that you make a post like this.

    Captains are in a great position.
    We can fit in any 3man nicely.
    We can main tank or main heal most of 6mans and when there is a group of 5 looking for a 6th and having no captain they can not pick anything better than a captain that would make everyone of them stronger plus bringing his own dps and heals.
    We are needed for hard raids, always two captains.
    We are loved in moors for all the things we can do.

    We are also better than half (at least) for soloing in PvE and we can do great at 1v1ing creeps too.

    I dont think we need a great buff, i am afraid of a nerf.

    Zitat Zitat von Grimdi Beitrag anzeigen

    TL;DR: The problem is not the class but the content.
    ? How is the content unfavorable for us?
    Geändert von Pero_the_Cappy (21.05.2013 um 07:09 Uhr)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0e2150000000775b8/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  5. #5
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    Zitat Zitat von Pero_the_Cappy Beitrag anzeigen
    ? How is the content unfavorable for us?
    Most of the content doesn't "require" a captain, so you'll rarely see a "need cappy", but more often "need tank/heals/dps" and Captain not being the typical Main Healer/DPS class I think that's what the OP refers to (may be wrong)
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
    Playing now: Hellcat / King Tiger / GW Panther / IS / KV-5 / M4 Sherman and more

  6. #6
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    22.12.2007
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    Zitat Zitat von OruiFarimur Beitrag anzeigen
    In my earlier cappy days (i.e 1-60ish) in groups captains were awesome! but it seems to me at 85 cappys aren't very valuable to the groups. Sure the buffs and occasional bubble are nice, but every cappy i see on my server is fully decked out for heals, yet easily gets out-healed by the RK or mini. I very well understand we're the support role, which is why I picked a cappy. But I've seen many groups pick anything but a captain (or a burg for that matter, but thats another thread.) I'm hoping with the class revamp some of the classes get nerfed a little bit and our buffs become a little more useful. Once we pop Motivating and a tactic on everyone we might as well leave group, Shield/blade/song bro gets rendered useless when you have 2 champs a mini and a rk in the group. With something like 10k damage every second or 2 and 20k worth of heals in a raid where do we come in? buffing that damage up to 11k? heals up to 21k? I could be totally wrong. Just feel a little left out and useless nowadays.

    Soloing however is totally different..
    20k healing in a raid? Not a very good healing captain are you? I healed 300k+ last night in BfE T2. We are still working on T2C but I think I can get my healing a little higher before we complete it. We are a support class, not a main healing class. Naturally the healing classes will do more heals than we do so I think that we have the ability to main heal most 6 and 3 mans a real sign as to what is wrong with the game.

  7. #7
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    I think what the OP is referring to is the "second captain" problem.

    ie: "Why should we take you when we already have a captain?"

    That's what sucks about the class - it's frustrating, especially when you're doing faceroll easy content like the scaled stuff.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  8. #8
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    Looks like everyone understood the OP in his own way.

    I understood him in some way too. And in that was I do agree. While nothing major happened to the captain's role in 3mans/12mans, the 6man instances became too boring...

    6-man instances:
    I feel useless as a captain nowadays. Surely captains can fill in a healing and/or tanking roles (I use "and" here because I did some amazingly smooth runs with 1 captains + 5 hunters), but there are other classes for those roles as well. I prefer to tank on my guard (which is also terribly underused nowadays) and heal on RK/minstrel. Captain used to be an unique class which had a dedicated role of supporting the group and filling the gaps in healing/tanking/dps when needed. There are no gaps now. The content is so easy that no 6 man instance requires a captain as a class. This is one of the major reasons why I almost don't play my captain now (though she is still listed as my main).

    Captains are not alone facing this problem. I miss the time when the pug groups were asking for specific classes, it made me feel needed on those classes. A captain was needed because a healer or a tank were not well geared/experienced. LMs and burgs were needed to daze some adds and debuff the boss. Now people need something healish (minstrel/rk is often an "overheal"), something tankish (guard/warden is not a must, can take a champ or 1-2 captains), and a lot of DPS (including dps minstrels and OP guards).


    TL;DR:
    Zitat Zitat von Grimdi Beitrag anzeigen
    TL;DR: The problem is not the class but the content.
    Ishtarien - Captain
    Ishtarel - Hunter / Lunasa - Minstrel
    Ishtaridas - LRM 105 / Ishtari - RNK 105 / Ishti - BRG 105 / Cabernetta - GRD 105 / Medovinus - BRN 105
    The Mellowship || Eldar -> Evernight

  9. #9
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    Zitat Zitat von Almagnus1 Beitrag anzeigen
    I think what the OP is referring to is the "second captain" problem.

    ie: "Why should we take you when we already have a captain?"

    That's what sucks about the class - it's frustrating, especially when you're doing faceroll easy content like the scaled stuff.
    This depends entirely on the two captains. There are plenty of reasons to bring two captains if they are traited different. I have even run a few 6 mans with 3 captains and had a blast doing so.
    [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/nalv.jpg/][IMG]http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7739/nalv.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

  10. #10
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    Zitat Zitat von Qwyxzl Beitrag anzeigen
    This depends entirely on the two captains. There are plenty of reasons to bring two captains if they are traited different. I have even run a few 6 mans with 3 captains and had a blast doing so.
    While the captains know this, the general population doesn't.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  11. #11
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    Zitat Zitat von Almagnus1 Beitrag anzeigen
    While the captains know this, the general population doesn't.
    I will agree that there is a sad lack of knowledge about captains and their capabilities.
    [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/nalv.jpg/][IMG]http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7739/nalv.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

  12. #12
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    Zitat Zitat von OruiFarimur Beitrag anzeigen
    In my earlier cappy days (i.e 1-60ish) in groups captains were awesome! but it seems to me at 85 cappys aren't very valuable to the groups. Sure the buffs and occasional bubble are nice, but every cappy i see on my server is fully decked out for heals, yet easily gets out-healed by the RK or mini. I very well understand we're the support role, which is why I picked a cappy. But I've seen many groups pick anything but a captain (or a burg for that matter, but thats another thread.) I'm hoping with the class revamp some of the classes get nerfed a little bit and our buffs become a little more useful. Once we pop Motivating and a tactic on everyone we might as well leave group, Shield/blade/song bro gets rendered useless when you have 2 champs a mini and a rk in the group. With something like 10k damage every second or 2 and 20k worth of heals in a raid where do we come in? buffing that damage up to 11k? heals up to 21k? I could be totally wrong. Just feel a little left out and useless nowadays.

    Soloing however is totally different..
    Things have become so easy support is no longer needed. On that we agree, though I would challenge your assertion that RKs and Ministrels easily out-heal Captains. That hasn't been my experience, and with the recent changes to Valiant Strike I would consider Captains stand-alone healers now in their own right and we are definitely competitive in that role.

    This game seems to be going down the same path WoW did. I hate to see it, but the "support" class is slowing fading away and being replaced by typical tank/dps/heal trio seems like to me.

    One more point: your posts seems to imply captains were more powerful in the old days. I wouldn't agree to that. This class is far more powerful today than it ever has been - though that's not necessarily a good thing if the content isn't adjusted to compensate. We could be awesome support right now if the content actually demanded it. Sadly it doesn't - so we are obliged to fill main-role gaps and I can understand why that doesn't appeal to a lot of Captains like yourself. I'm sure loremasters aren't liking it much either.
    Geändert von Jeremi (21.05.2013 um 19:37 Uhr)

  13. #13
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    I'm not implying captains were once more powerful, we're pretty well set now. But before the more recent updates content pretty much *required* a captain or some form of support. Nowadays everything is so easy no one cares for support, On my server I've seen people 3 man farm the barrow 6 mans with 1 dps a tank and a mini. My main point is, the entire game is thrown off in such a way support roles aren't as desired as a basic group of dps tank and healer. It's all too easy, personally I don't have the Erebor instances so I cant say how needed/uneeded a cappy might be there, but the fact that champions can solo the Iobars Peak instances(3 man) gives you an idea of how easy content is, and how basic a group can remain. I picked a support class to fill the support role *ooh shocker* but there's not much supporting to do nowadays, we're seemingly classified as off-heals on FF lately. And before someone decides to say "omg captains can outheal minis if they're traited right" No. No they cant. Even if they could, we aren't a healing class. Yes we have healing skills, but we're the **support class** I'd like to be seen as a little more useful that off-heals. We all come from different servers, I'm just stating how it is on mine.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000002c9618/signature.png]Farimur[/charsig]

  14. #14
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    Zitat Zitat von OruiFarimur Beitrag anzeigen
    I'm not implying captains were once more powerful, we're pretty well set now. But before the more recent updates content pretty much *required* a captain or some form of support. Nowadays everything is so easy no one cares for support, On my server I've seen people 3 man farm the barrow 6 mans with 1 dps a tank and a mini. My main point is, the entire game is thrown off in such a way support roles aren't as desired as a basic group of dps tank and healer. It's all too easy, personally I don't have the Erebor instances so I cant say how needed/uneeded a cappy might be there, but the fact that champions can solo the Iobars Peak instances(3 man) gives you an idea of how easy content is, and how basic a group can remain. I picked a support class to fill the support role *ooh shocker* but there's not much supporting to do nowadays, we're seemingly classified as off-heals on FF lately. And before someone decides to say "omg captains can outheal minis if they're traited right" No. No they cant. Even if they could, we aren't a healing class. Yes we have healing skills, but we're the **support class** I'd like to be seen as a little more useful that off-heals. We all come from different servers, I'm just stating how it is on mine.
    Don't feel bad, that is how the game is. You don't "need" any single class to complete 3/6 mans. Heals aren't needed very much when RKs and Hunters are able to tank 3/6 mans.

  15. #15
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    As others have already said, this is not a Captain-specific problem. And personally, I don't think it's a problem at all...

    Captains aren't needed in the same way that all other classes aren't really needed for the 3/6-man content, or even T1 raids.

    Healing Minstrel/RK says: There's no need for us, a Cappy can heal this

    Tanking Guard/Ward says: There's no need for us, a champ or cappy can tank this

    LM/Burg says: There's no need for us, DPS can just burn through everything instead of cc

    Now, looking at the above, i'd say the Captain is actually in a really good position 3/6-man wise. You see, we can fill, not only the Captain role, but we can take the role as a healer, or tank, or just make sure the groups DPS is boosted enough to not need any cc...

    And you can have some real fun with a cappy-only 3-man, Id suggest Seat of the Great Goblin with 3xCappy, it's really fun, and the OB-spam on the bosses is epic
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8C8nLy2okg[/url] Saruman 6-man
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj4h-CF9log[/url] Warden Survival
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  16. #16
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    Right now captains can easily take the place of a mainhealer because the content is such a joke, which allows the group to bring 4 or 5 dps, while still getting captain buffs... If you were thinking about speed-running some content then grabbing a captain and NO healer is the way to go.

    Just make sure you have that hytbold healer armor... The combination of rally cry spam + that 7s reduction on VS means you can have the HoT ticking away the entire time. I've easily out-healed the average minstrel or RK in probably 2/3 the instances out there, because there's so much trash. But realistically you only need about like.. 500 hps to do any of the content, a lore-master can mainheal.

    oh btw we can tank too.
    Geändert von DuneBug (22.05.2013 um 13:28 Uhr)
    105 (Captain, Champion, Guardian)

  17. #17
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    Zitat Zitat von OruiFarimur Beitrag anzeigen
    I'm not implying captains were once more powerful, we're pretty well set now. But before the more recent updates content pretty much *required* a captain or some form of support. Nowadays everything is so easy no one cares for support, On my server I've seen people 3 man farm the barrow 6 mans with 1 dps a tank and a mini. My main point is, the entire game is thrown off in such a way support roles aren't as desired as a basic group of dps tank and healer. It's all too easy, personally I don't have the Erebor instances so I cant say how needed/uneeded a cappy might be there, but the fact that champions can solo the Iobars Peak instances(3 man) gives you an idea of how easy content is, and how basic a group can remain. I picked a support class to fill the support role *ooh shocker* but there's not much supporting to do nowadays, we're seemingly classified as off-heals on FF lately. And before someone decides to say "omg captains can outheal minis if they're traited right" No. No they cant. Even if they could, we aren't a healing class. Yes we have healing skills, but we're the **support class** I'd like to be seen as a little more useful that off-heals. We all come from different servers, I'm just stating how it is on mine.
    Ok sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to say Orui. I agree with you that support is no longer required for most (if not all) of the content these days.

    As far as the Captain vs Ministrel debate, that would depend on the Captain and Ministrel more than anything else probably. A good healing Captain can easily outheal a bad ministrel. Captain is a very powerful healer these days because our old weakness of being unable to reliably supply group heals was fixed with the recent buffs to Valiant Strike.

    Now In the old days I would have said no contest, Ministrel > Captain, but these days I don't think it's quite so black and white. I see a lot of ministrels and runekeepers who struggle at healing content my Captain can do fairly easily, such as Tier2 Fornost Fire and Shadow to name two quick examples. I would not have wanted to try healing those by myself in the old days, but now I can do it comfortably and reliably.

  18. #18
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    Zitat Zitat von DuneBug Beitrag anzeigen
    Right now captains can easily take the place of a mainhealer because the content is such a joke, which allows the group to bring 4 or 5 dps, while still getting captain buffs... If you were thinking about speed-running some content then grabbing a captain and NO healer is the way to go.

    .
    I somewhat disagree with you Dunebug. Yes, the ease of a lot of the content does play a part - but the main reason from my point of view Captains have become such good healers isn't because of that. It's because they have made Valiant Strike a reliable and powerful form of AoE healing, which enables us to counter strong AoE damage and offer effective group-wide heals on a consistent basis, something we couldn't reliably do before.

    Captains have always been competetive at single-target tank healing. Now we are competetive at AoE healing as well. Because of that I no longer view Captain as a support class, at least not when it comes to healing. I think we've become powerful enough healers that we have entered the realm of Main Healer status in our own right.
    Geändert von Jeremi (23.05.2013 um 18:30 Uhr)

  19. #19
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    Zitat Zitat von vr00mie Beitrag anzeigen
    As others have already said, this is not a Captain-specific problem. And personally, I don't think it's a problem at all...
    That's a fair statement VrOOmie, but for those Captains who enjoyed playing the "support" role it's going to be a big problem, because that role has effectively been rendered moot and insignificant for the vast majority of this game. Loremasters probably have it even worse though, as core abilities such as their CC and powershare abilities have become largely inconsequential, and most loremasters I know have (with regret) turned their characters into damage-dealers to remain relevant.

    I was afraid this was going to happen eventually on this game. The exact same thing happened on WoW and Final Fantasy11 in fact - and it seems the "support" role is always doomed to drift into irrelevance on MMORPGs as they scale down the challenge to appeal to those who like things easier and less complex.

    In my opinion all tier2 content should require some form of support to complete, rather it be strategic use of crowd control or support healing and power restoration. In other words, if you don't bring a Captain, Burglar, or Loremaster - you are going to fail.
    Geändert von Jeremi (23.05.2013 um 19:05 Uhr)

 

 

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