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  1. #7451
    Registriert seit
    06.06.2011
    Beiträge
    2.197
    Zitat Zitat von Feldanor Beitrag anzeigen
    The problem is that this thread is the first thing anyone looking at the forums is going too see. If the rumors of big Lotro promotion with the next Hobbit movie are true, anyone who tries to research which server to join and see's this aint gonna wanna join here. Too much childish arguing about stuff that really doesn't matter. And let be honest this server really badly needs numbers.
    Anything's better than a dead thread. A dead thread indicates (to people who just stop by to look) little activity and players who lack passion. I illustrated that well when I asked if there was still any action here due to the fall in forum activity. And face it, people disagree and people will argue. There is no game in the world where players of a pvp game only throw flowers at each other when discussing. It's NORMAL to disagree, anything else would indicate incompetitive players. However, slagging others off only indicates immature players.

  2. #7452
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    The Netherlands
    Beiträge
    364
    Zitat Zitat von Jureon Beitrag anzeigen
    Let's revive this thread a bit, many people are inactive and would be nice to know how many are going to play on moors during Helm's Deep. Now that RoR era is about to end and HD is just around the corner, I'd like to ask some questions/opinions:

    1. How was RoR faction balance in your opinion?
    2. How would you improve the PvP faction balance?
    3. What PvP aspects would you improve in HD? (certain classes, OP buffs, Keep buffs..etc.)
    4. What has been your favorite expansion pvp wise and why?
    5. Are you planning to play HD ettenmoors?

    K thanks bye.
    1. It was great at first, but with several pve updates to the game, the freeps got OP again which caused the gramscamping for a few months. (First couple months in RoR there were enough creeps online because of the pretty nice balance, but when freeps got their buffs, some creeps turned back to their freep.)

    2. Stop only updating freeps after the expansion, so there will still be balance, and creepside doesn't lose numbers again to cause gramscamping.

    3.1 -Make NPC's in keeps a bit stronger so people actually feel a bit more safe inside their keep.

    3.2 -Same with EC/OC, you won't be safe in there if there's 3 people of the other faction comming after you.

    3.3 - Put EC and OC back in their old spots. They are barely used nowadays and that's just a waste.

    3.4 -Remove backdoors. They are part of the cause of grams/GV camping. If people can't charge the keep properly because the other faction hides in the backdoor, they
    can't take the keep and the camping won't stop.

    3.5 -When freeps get their buffs in updates after the expansion, please do not forget the creeps. The balance would get bad again which causes more people to quit this game and Gilrain can't afford to lose many more numbers.

    3.6 - OP's should have a cd of like 30 minutes, and when 1 side gets more OP's each OP should be giving a slightly less buff. for instance: when a faction has 1 OP, the OP gives 4k mastery. when a faction has 2 OP's they both give 3k mastery which is 6k in total. When a faction has 3 OP's they all give 2,5k mastery which is 7.5k and when they have all 4, each OP gives 2k so they have 8k mastery bonus. This is meant to stop the faction which already probably has the majority in numbers to get too much mastery etc from having more OP's.

    3.7 - Give DoF bonusses to the faction that has done the most damage to the boss, not the one who gets the KB.

    4. I've only played PvP in RoI and RoR, and my recources tell me they were both really bad in terms of balance. But if I have to choose one, I would say the start of RoR.

    5. I'm not planning to quit the game within this month so that automaticly means I will be playing HD ettenmoors

    Just my 2 cents.

  3. #7453
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge
    598
    Zitat Zitat von Jureon Beitrag anzeigen
    Let's revive this thread a bit, many people are inactive and would be nice to know how many are going to play on moors during Helm's Deep. Now that RoR era is about to end and HD is just around the corner, I'd like to ask some questions/opinions:

    1. How was RoR faction balance in your opinion?
    2. How would you improve the PvP faction balance?
    3. What PvP aspects would you improve in HD? (certain classes, OP buffs, Keep buffs..etc.)
    4. What has been your favorite expansion pvp wise and why?
    5. Are you planning to play HD ettenmoors?

    K thanks bye.
    1. Started okay, some good action, then changed dismally later on.
    2. As someone stated, each expansion should include Creep revamp as well as freep (new corruption slots is hardly a comparable update for Creeps)
    3. I`ve said numerous times, OP`s should be tied to the 4 outlying keeps, if LC, ID, TR and Lug are blue, all Op`s should be red and vica-versa, if keeps are 1 colour it means that side has the numbers, so the weaker side should have the mastery Buff. Get rid of auto flips.
    TA should be independent and give its own Mastery and ren/inf buff, that being said ALL keeps should have stronger NPC`s and methods to stop zergs, kiting and ninja pulls, possibly doors to CG/Tyrant rooms that can only be accessed once the outer npc`s are dead (obv apart from the faction that owns the keep), these doors cannot be entered in combat.
    4. Any that gave good fights
    5. Yes, but not on gilrain.

  4. #7454
    Registriert seit
    22.06.2012
    Beiträge
    544
    Zitat Zitat von Reapor Beitrag anzeigen
    1. Started okay, some good action, then changed dismally later on.
    2. As someone stated, each expansion should include Creep revamp as well as freep (new corruption slots is hardly a comparable update for Creeps)
    3. I`ve said numerous times, OP`s should be tied to the 4 outlying keeps, if LC, ID, TR and Lug are blue, all Op`s should be red and vica-versa, if keeps are 1 colour it means that side has the numbers, so the weaker side should have the mastery Buff. Get rid of auto flips.
    TA should be independent and give its own Mastery and ren/inf buff, that being said ALL keeps should have stronger NPC`s and methods to stop zergs, kiting and ninja pulls, possibly doors to CG/Tyrant rooms that can only be accessed once the outer npc`s are dead (obv apart from the faction that owns the keep), these doors cannot be entered in combat.
    4. Any that gave good fights
    5. Yes, but not on gilrain.
    Why not get rid of PVE bonuses in a PVP zone and balance things more?

    1. Started as the best action for me [solo/small groups], Failed with u10.

    2. Nerf freep heals, Disable Glory for champs, Disable determination for wardens and limit them to 2 blue traits.

    3. Dunno anything about HD

    4. From RoI and RoR I would say ror just because i enjoyed update8 and 9.

    5. Maybe, depends if HD is worth buying untill then cya on withy or snowy.

  5. #7455
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    Varda
    Beiträge
    302
    Zitat Zitat von Jureon Beitrag anzeigen
    Let's revive this thread a bit, many people are inactive and would be nice to know how many are going to play on moors during Helm's Deep. Now that RoR era is about to end and HD is just around the corner, I'd like to ask some questions/opinions:

    1. How was RoR faction balance in your opinion?
    2. How would you improve the PvP faction balance?
    3. What PvP aspects would you improve in HD? (certain classes, OP buffs, Keep buffs..etc.)
    4. What has been your favorite expansion pvp wise and why?
    5. Are you planning to play HD ettenmoors?

    K thanks bye.

    1. Was horrible. I was crying since my hot champ became squishilicious.

    2. I would made things as they where in 2008 EARLY MOM PERIOD!

    3.Certian

    Mins - Major decrease in attack speed, damage,health pool. Increse self healing, Temporary invincible boost, increasing AOE healing range.

    Warden and Rk classes should be deleted from game.

    Burg has limited amount of time to use stealth. For example 1 min duration then 20 sec CD.

    Elf Hunter has increased firing range up to 100m with certain skills.

    Guardian can have legendary shield and gain access to some substantial defensive skills which makes them pretty much impossible to kill in solo.

    Champion gains news passive skill called Iron Will - Immunity to fear,stun,daze and knockdown. CB rage does't not drain your health , but you receive 100% more damage on hit, but you do 200% more in return.

    OP buffs- Ridiculously high and they create further imbalance. Completely remove it. Etten was better place without it.

    Keep buffs - None.

    When you are in keep you get defense bonus from ranged attacks only

    Etc - Elf female champ should receive +300% in combat renown experience without killing creeps with each blow, Longer you fight , more points...

    Elf female champ should have power of Luthien to mezz any creep for 10 min. Creep can't be killed tho.

    Elf female champ must get power of the first age. Valar Orome will bless them with Advanced unyielding rage which give doubles Fervor and Controled CB rage without negative impacts. 60 sec duration. CD 10min. Traited Favored by orome Reduced CD by 3 min.

    Elf female champ must have boost to Evade chance , about 10%. Master agility traited - add 15% max.

    Elf female champ must have improved First age weapons created by Aule or Most skilled Noldor smiths. Durability,speed and damage increased up to 25%

    Perma fear to rank 0 creeps.

    Elf female champ is too hot handle. Creep has 5% chance to trying banging her and drops his weapons. Immediate defeat.

    Elf female champ has an access to extremely rare armor from Years of Trees in time when Battle of Powers took place.

    4. Early MOM peroid 18TH November 2008 - 4th April 2009

    5. Yes with creep in very start until I am OP. We see what happens in near furture...

    6. Yes please Vani in bat , its too good.
    Geändert von Melunielsigh (16.10.2013 um 04:45 Uhr)

  6. #7456
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge
    107
    Zitat Zitat von Melunielsigh Beitrag anzeigen
    1. Was horrible. I was crying since my hot champ became squishilicious.

    2. I would made things as they where in 2008 EARLY MOM PERIOD!

    3.Certian

    Mins - Major decrease in attack speed, damage,health pool. Increse self healing, Temporary invincible boost, increasing AOE healing range.

    Warden and Rk classes should be deleted from game.

    Burg has limited amount of time to use stealth. For example 1 min duration then 20 sec CD.

    Elf Hunter has increased firing range up to 100m with certain skills.

    Guardian can have legendary shield and gain access to some substantial defensive skills which makes them pretty much impossible to kill in solo.

    Champion gains news passive skill called Iron Will - Immunity to fear,stun,daze and knockdown. CB rage does't not drain your health , but you receive 100% more damage on hit, but you do 200% more in return.

    OP buffs- Ridiculously high and they create further imbalance. Completely remove it. Etten was better place without it.

    Keep buffs - None.

    When you are in keep you get defense bonus from ranged attacks only

    Etc - Elf female champ should receive +300% in combat renown experience without killing creeps with each blow, Longer you fight , more points...

    Elf female champ should have power of Luthien to mezz any creep for 10 min. Creep can't be killed tho.

    Elf female champ must get power of the first age. Valar Orome will bless them with Advanced unyielding rage which give doubles Fervor and Controled CB rage without negative impacts. 60 sec duration. CD 10min. Traited Favored by orome Reduced CD by 3 min.

    Elf female champ must have boost to Evade chance , about 10%. Master agility traited - add 15% max.

    Elf female champ must have improved First age weapons created by Aule or Most skilled Noldor smiths. Durability,speed and damage increased up to 25%

    Perma fear to rank 0 creeps.

    Elf female champ is too hot handle. Creep has 5% chance to trying banging her and drops his weapons. Immediate defeat.

    Elf female champ has an access to extremely rare armor from Years of Trees in time when Battle of Powers took place.

    4. Early MOM peroid 18TH November 2008 - 4th April 2009

    5. Yes with creep in very start until I am OP. We see what happens in near furture...

    6. Yes please Vani in bat , its too good.

    That's so daft it's funny.

    Must say the too hot to handle thing was brilliant.

  7. #7457
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge
    92
    Zitat Zitat von Jureon Beitrag anzeigen
    Let's revive this thread a bit, many people are inactive and would be nice to know how many are going to play on moors during Helm's Deep. Now that RoR era is about to end and HD is just around the corner, I'd like to ask some questions/opinions:

    1. How was RoR faction balance in your opinion?
    2. How would you improve the PvP faction balance?
    3. What PvP aspects would you improve in HD? (certain classes, OP buffs, Keep buffs..etc.)
    4. What has been your favorite expansion pvp wise and why?
    5. Are you planning to play HD ettenmoors?

    K thanks bye.
    1. As others stated before it started very good, but with some latter updates the balance became worse and worse.
    2. With each update keep improving both of the factions not only 1.
    3. Remove the OP and keep buffs, they just encourage PVE, move OC and EC to their old place, they were more useful there than on their new positions - I'm actually missing the old OC/EC pew-pew fights xD, make STAB and WTAB flippable again, about class changes I dont know, lets wait for HD and we will see.
    4. My favourite expansion was the end of SoM when I started to play in the moors. Back then the moors seemed to be a more friendly place, it seemed like everyone playing for the fun only, not caring about dying etc, I might be wrong tho, I was a newbie noob then xD
    5.Yes I will definitely give it a go, and I hope we will get more numbers on both sides.
    Geändert von Rathregraw (16.10.2013 um 12:25 Uhr)

  8. #7458
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    186
    Zitat Zitat von Jureon Beitrag anzeigen
    Let's revive this thread a bit, many people are inactive and would be nice to know how many are going to play on moors during Helm's Deep. Now that RoR era is about to end and HD is just around the corner, I'd like to ask some questions/opinions:

    1. How was RoR faction balance in your opinion?
    2. How would you improve the PvP faction balance?
    3. What PvP aspects would you improve in HD? (certain classes, OP buffs, Keep buffs..etc.)
    4. What has been your favorite expansion pvp wise and why?
    5. Are you planning to play HD ettenmoors?

    K thanks bye.
    1. The balance was great at the start, but with nothing to keep creeps up to date with successive freep updates as per usual the balance swung in freep's favour.
    2. Do something between expansion releases to bolster creeps.
    3. Too soon to tell really with the major revamp to freeps. OP, Keep buffs can just get scrapped imo.
    4. SoM was great fun on both sides, the pvp community was great. The creep/freep balance was about as spot on as can be realistically expected and we had some epic craid/fraid raid leaders.
    5. Yes. To what extent remains to be seen though.

  9. #7459
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    UK
    Beiträge
    216
    Zitat Zitat von Jureon Beitrag anzeigen
    Let's revive this thread a bit, many people are inactive and would be nice to know how many are going to play on moors during Helm's Deep. Now that RoR era is about to end and HD is just around the corner, I'd like to ask some questions/opinions:

    1. How was RoR faction balance in your opinion?
    2. How would you improve the PvP faction balance?
    3. What PvP aspects would you improve in HD? (certain classes, OP buffs, Keep buffs..etc.)
    4. What has been your favorite expansion pvp wise and why?
    5. Are you planning to play HD ettenmoors?

    K thanks bye.
    Since there isnt any point in this, ah well here it goes;

    1. start of expansion of ror pvmp was great as it was challenging and fun for me as creeps had the mojo then the mid-term the updates kicked in and it began to be the apocolypse for pvmp as creeps got nerfed and freeps were boosted in healing and dps. "I like challenges it makes gameplay fun for me".

    2. Definately add longer switching locks from creeps to freeps and freeps to creeps around 45 mins before player can enter ettenmoor on which ever side they wish to go into for ettenmoors. Too much buffs making rank too worthless now especially the backdoor mechanics of the game which is game breaking - i would to turbine to make them to be used out of combat only and backdoor should not be introduced for TR and Lug but to be given to TA as this would limit Grams/GV camp all day long and make keeps npc stronger and defo the tyrant/CG needs to hit hard or make them level 87 when players are level 85. This would be challenging and fun. Have an icecream van moving around the ettenmoors giving out all the icecream lollies to the good kids

    3. A) high rank creeps about rank 9+ should get good dps and heals equivalant to good geared freeps with rank 9+. B) remove backdoor for lug and tr to avoid base camp pew pew, sorry hunters or BA or any range class as its fun or you but melee classes get bored of this. C) remove commendations into doughnuts so we have an option to eat them haha. or wait maybe make them chocolate chip giant size yummm arghhhhhh doughnuuuuuts D) Nerf squelcher as he is too OP on this war leader xD and razzy too for being a shield maiden guardian and defo make delotha dps from 2k single shot to 10 LOL. but really option A and B i take it as consideration but option C and D just need implementing in future expansion.

    4. Seeing Nargai doing his dance routine daily in GV "Im sexxy and you know it" was disturbing. Short screaming "RUN, tekkers are chasing meh, to the cookieh bar". No seriously really, the best part was the first launch of ror when everything was bright with pretty flowers.

    5. Yeap i ll still be around ofc, as gilrain needs moar cookies for good kids.

  10. #7460
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge
    63
    1 - Not bad at start but in general with all updates worst than ROI - ROI worst than Mirkwood - Mirkwood worst than MOM - MOM worst than SOA.
    2 - Give more % mitigation and dps to creeps. Its simple. Example: rank 1 - 5 plus 5%; rank 6 - 8 plus 10%; rank 9 to 12 plus 15%; rank 13 to 15 plus 20%. This should balance things a bit more.
    3 - Stronger Tyrants/CGs and npcs in general. Counter measures to easy keep flips.
    4 - All before ROI: Great community - Gilrain knew as the most friendly and respectful community in Codemasters Era, almost no cheating/clubbing/multiboxing/spying, respect between players.
    5 - freaver casually.
    Geändert von Corlindel- (17.10.2013 um 09:51 Uhr)

  11. #7461
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    UK
    Beiträge
    417
    It's gone from bad to worse on everything .

    Zergs are the bane of this server and we all know where they originate from .

    Beware the Ides of November

  12. #7462
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Ort
    Waterford, Ireland
    Beiträge
    3.401
    Zitat Zitat von Tirn Beitrag anzeigen
    Beware the Ides of November
    Helms Deep is going to temporarily kill zergs; not cause them. It'll take a number of weeks before there'll be sufficient numbers of players to create zergs again.

  13. #7463
    Registriert seit
    30.06.2011
    Beiträge
    58

    Thumbs down

    Just logged a few minutes ago on my creep after a rest from a boring OP wars, I'm told that there is a certain rank 15 hunter in Arador's End OP so me & a tribe mate go there and attack him to the drakes where he all of a sudden disappears. I really wonder what excuse that same hunter has to explain (yet again) that this is not an exploit or even pathetically tell me that he doesn't have to explain himself. I'm tired of reporting freep cheaters just to get no effect from the GMs. I'm tired of all the cheating from freepside...
    Main: Krashank Rank 11 Reaver.

    Plus Rank10 BA, Rank10 Stalker, Rank7 Defiler & Rank7 Spider.

  14. #7464
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    Grothum
    Beiträge
    9

    The Vanishing Elf

    I know that all the fantasy literature suggests that elves can move unseen, you know the kind of stuff, silent as a shadow, etc. Today Delotha gave me a first class taste of this incredible ability. Whilst running away he suddenly vanished! Does he have a magic ring? Or is he using some exploit that I'm unaware of? As a 'Hero of the Ettenmoors', as his title claims, I feel a little cheated. Disappointed in you Del...

  15. #7465
    Registriert seit
    30.06.2011
    Beiträge
    58
    Zitat Zitat von Lawless11 Beitrag anzeigen
    I know that all the fantasy literature suggests that elves can move unseen, you know the kind of stuff, silent as a shadow, etc. Today Delotha gave me a first class taste of this incredible ability. Whilst running away he suddenly vanished! Does he have a magic ring? Or is he using some exploit that I'm unaware of? As a 'Hero of the Ettenmoors', as his title claims, I feel a little cheated. Disappointed in you Del...
    I knew that some smarty would say something like that my bad i didn't add this part that it was in combat.
    Main: Krashank Rank 11 Reaver.

    Plus Rank10 BA, Rank10 Stalker, Rank7 Defiler & Rank7 Spider.

  16. #7466
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    The Netherlands
    Beiträge
    364
    This is a captain exploit that has been used before by a certain kin, and they are using it again now.
    The captain has been used as a bot before by a certain r15 RK. It teleports them to safety when needed.
    The r15 hunter you mention is not the only one that's using it now, a certain kin is using it again.

  17. #7467
    Registriert seit
    12.06.2011
    Ort
    UK
    Beiträge
    470
    And I thought you lot were gonna keep this thread civil from now on. Ah well.

  18. #7468
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Ort
    Waterford, Ireland
    Beiträge
    3.401
    BD are exploiting again? Gee, who would have guessed? Their chums are exploiting too? Gee, who would have guessed?

    On a sidenote: You know you're doing your job well when the leader of the kin that hates you most lists corpse jumping you and showing a screenshot of it to an officer as a method of being promoted to officer on their forum. Oh! How did I know that...?

    ...It's a secret.

  19. #7469
    Registriert seit
    30.06.2011
    Beiträge
    58
    Zitat Zitat von Razzy_EU Beitrag anzeigen
    And I thought you lot were gonna keep this thread civil from now on. Ah well.
    So stating that one is tired from cheating in an online game is uncivilized now? But such in game actions are civilized in your opinion?
    A truly one-sided statement with no foresight whatsoever..
    Main: Krashank Rank 11 Reaver.

    Plus Rank10 BA, Rank10 Stalker, Rank7 Defiler & Rank7 Spider.

  20. #7470
    Registriert seit
    12.06.2011
    Ort
    UK
    Beiträge
    470
    Zitat Zitat von Squelcher Beitrag anzeigen
    On a sidenote: You know you're doing your job well when the leader of the kin that hates you most lists corpse jumping you and showing a screenshot of it to an officer as a method of being promoted to officer on their forum.
    To be honest are you really shocked at that Squelchy?

  21. #7471
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Ort
    Waterford, Ireland
    Beiträge
    3.401
    Zitat Zitat von Razzy_EU Beitrag anzeigen
    To be honest are you really shocked at that Squelchy?
    No. Not at all. In fact, I expect nothing more from them.

  22. #7472
    Registriert seit
    12.06.2011
    Ort
    UK
    Beiträge
    470
    Zitat Zitat von Shark-EU Beitrag anzeigen
    So stating that one is tired from cheating in an online game is uncivilized now? But such in game actions are civilized in your opinion?
    A truly one-sided statement with no foresight whatsoever..
    *shrugs* Just messing around. Meant no harm with it, Sorry if it did. Will walk away from this thread again if peeps are gonna jump down my throat.

  23. #7473
    Registriert seit
    12.06.2011
    Ort
    UK
    Beiträge
    470
    Zitat Zitat von Squelcher Beitrag anzeigen
    No. Not at all. In fact, I expect nothing more from them.
    And that's why I love you Squelchy<3

  24. #7474
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Ort
    Greece
    Beiträge
    90
    Delotha the raidbaby(quote:You always hide behind a raid-Actually the raid hides behind me)
    Delotha the camper (quote:Can you fight like a man for once?Lolwut-no I cant,fighting like a triceratop is more efficient )
    Delotha the p2w (quote :You use 20$ worth of store pots everytime a creep comes near you.Ofcourse said creep didnt know the golden ring procs icons,but what the hell)
    Delotha the exploiter (quote:Using inductions to interrupt spider burrow is a blatant exploit and I ve reported you 3 times already-Maybe if you report me 10 more a GM might contact you to give you a lesson on game mechanics.)
    Delotha the cheater (#%$@^%#^%# incombat df-This is were I had prepared a wall of text ,but you know what ef it ,you gonna believe what you wanna believe anyway)

    I know what's the general consensus about me @ creepside ,there s no point in trying to change the mind of any of you that feel so strong about me for various reasons.To be honest this indicates a healthy pvp environment.Hate and grudges keep the ettenmoors from dying,so ,please, hate ,hate with passion.Hate for the right reasons and hate for the wrong reasons.Hate because you wanna give your frustration about the game a face and hate because it is "that" face that is causing you frustration ingame.If it makes you feel any better cj me after every kill-I always wait 2-3 seconds before releasing to give creeps a chance to do it.

    Strangely enough Im the same person I was when I started the game.I have a few good friends at creepside and a lot at freepside and nowadays I play the game for the social aspect of it mostly,so I'll close with the million dollar question:
    Why would I cheat to avoid a single death out of 6500 when there s nothin more to accomplish on hunter and I dont plan to upload anymore wartabs on forum?
    Why would I open myself to pages upon pages of trolling on forum ,giving my "fans" the weapons they so wanted to bash at me.
    Why didnt I do it again 5 mins later ,when ganked 2-3 times, mostly by the same people, outside grams.

    (Ok those were 3 questions,but I hope you get the point )

    As always,feel free to send hate mails, tells ,bombs etc @ the usual address :OnboardDelothaHatetrain@gilra in.com

  25. #7475
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge
    176
    Zitat Zitat von Delotha Beitrag anzeigen
    QQ
    QQ more Del.

 

 
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