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  1. #3351
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    513
    Respect to the freeps that logged creep lastnight ,i will c.o.d the gold in the post later ,yea guys i had to pay them true story
    [IMG]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x22/thedoc1971/18d08621-0f10-47a0-a562-1f390494d615_zps2791e246.jpg[/IMG]

  2. #3352
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Ort
    UK
    Beiträge
    1.941
    Indeed, thanks to those who did log over - I know there was a bit of friction amongst some who didn't like the fact, but I was glad to see you creepside, and we had the first decent bit of raid v raid action in a long while. Admittedly it didn't take long for freeps to overpower us (I think the 3rd time we met the raid of freeps we didn't stand a chance, as those tactical classes are unkillable by low rank creeps) but it was nice nonetheless to see an attempt at action, and unless more high rank creeps get involved, the best that we are going to see before some level of balance is restored to the Moors

    However, to Drogo, Pielegniarka, Yepyep, Mayar and all the other new minstrels I saw camping Grams last night, you are the ones that the creep community despises, you are the ones that we would happily charge a keep just to make sure we saw you die, and you are the ones that will be forever the first target in any group that I am in.
    Geändert von Tirian-Hammerfist (09.01.2014 um 14:24 Uhr) Grund: spelling
    - Taravan, R12 Captain - Tirian, Tanking Guardian - Telperon, Completionist LM -
    - Afranius, R9 WL - Tolobain, R7 Weaver - Vargan, R6 Stalker -

    Ex-Leader of Lost Realm of Imladris - Evernight - Co-Founder of Beauty and the Beasts

  3. #3353
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    12

    The pro players

    Nice to see people who left En to Snow,but if u come to cheat here,please dont come back.
    Watch pic to understand.Bombastic is a rk heal,2secs each tic,u can see the amount of atacks that a warg made in that 2 secs.

  4. #3354
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge
    246
    Zitat Zitat von Garrafon Beitrag anzeigen
    Nice to see people who left En to Snow,but if u come to cheat here,please dont come back.
    Watch pic to understand.Bombastic is a rk heal,2secs each tic,u can see the amount of atacks that a warg made in that 2 secs.
    the funny is how to watch them fail ganking all the time even tho they use macro lol.
    gj valdez ^^
    Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

    —Oscar Wilde

  5. #3355
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    513
    Zitat Zitat von Garrafon Beitrag anzeigen
    Nice to see people who left En to Snow,but if u come to cheat here,please dont come back.
    Watch pic to understand.Bombastic is a rk heal,2secs each tic,u can see the amount of atacks that a warg made in that 2 secs.
    ...........you don't need to do this Valdez
    [IMG]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x22/thedoc1971/18d08621-0f10-47a0-a562-1f390494d615_zps2791e246.jpg[/IMG]

  6. #3356
    Registriert seit
    26.09.2013
    Beiträge
    27
    Well i haven't been playing much, i just cannot play the way how it is going atm. and if I roll creep it is on eldar. atm i just play some other games. it's just so sad to see the current state of the moors.

    And no updates i bet for a whole year too.

  7. #3357
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    Finland
    Beiträge
    855
    Ok.
    great to see, yet another freep who qq's about wargs macroing.

    sednorwen said enco macroes on his warg.. people should learn the diffirence between macros and actually "well" played.

    until the day. No comments.


    The original Valdez

  8. #3358
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    Finland
    Beiträge
    855
    Zitat Zitat von Faildget Beitrag anzeigen
    Ok.
    great to see, yet another freep who qq's about wargs macroing.

    sednorwen said enco macroes on his warg.. people should learn the diffirence between macros and actually "well" played.

    until the day. No comments.


    Edit:
    I see 8 skills used in that time, a macro could do 15+ within 1second.

    Should try a warg garra.
    Geändert von Faildget (10.01.2014 um 17:39 Uhr)


    The original Valdez

  9. #3359
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge
    246
    Zitat Zitat von Faildget Beitrag anzeigen
    Edit:
    I see 8 skills used in that time, a macro could do 15+ within 1second.

    Should try a warg garra.
    lol everyone knows u macro dont make urself look stupid ^^
    and gz on the fail gank lol, atleast dont cheat at evernight go do it on snowy just a tips m8
    gg :P
    Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

    —Oscar Wilde

  10. #3360
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    53
    Zitat Zitat von Faildget Beitrag anzeigen
    Ok.
    great to see, yet another freep who qq's about wargs macroing.

    sednorwen said enco macroes on his warg.. people should learn the diffirence between macros and actually "well" played.

    until the day. No comments.
    I was talking to Toohey in kin about it at the time, I said to him it looked like he was, due to the skills used in my combat log and the amount of time taken to use these skills. Warg macro's are ruining ettens, more so on other servers than EN.... just dont bring it here with you if you come back to play EN cus its the reason I'm not playing creep atm :/
    [URL=http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/jonnyjacko1/media/521762dc-5470-40ea-808b-aa93f4143adb_zps9a87bee2.png.html][IMG]http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag400/jonnyjacko1/521762dc-5470-40ea-808b-aa93f4143adb_zps9a87bee2.png[/IMG][/URL]

  11. #3361
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Ort
    Denmark
    Beiträge
    218
    Zitat Zitat von Garrafon Beitrag anzeigen
    Nice to see people who left En to Snow,but if u come to cheat here,please dont come back.
    Watch pic to understand.Bombastic is a rk heal,2secs each tic,u can see the amount of atacks that a warg made in that 2 secs.
    Is that your convincing proof that this warg has exploited? All right, let us analyze it.


    The number of attacks between the two Bombastic Inspiration "tic's" are 15. As you have said, it heals X amount of morale every 2 seconds. Good.
    So, in theory, everything that has happened between those two "tic's" must have been done within 2 seconds. Am I following you? I think so.

    Let us see what you have done within 2 seconds: Essence of Storm and Shocking Words. Is that all? No, it is not. Seemingly, there are 2 "tic's" of Flurry of Words. But, wait...



    What is this? Flurry of Words "tic's" happen every 3 seconds!....but how? How is that possible? Is this some kind of temporal paradox? How, within 2 seconds, can there be two Flurry of Words "tic's" that happen every 3s? Really strange.

    Some would say that the main premise in which you back up your accusation is not very...trustworthy.

    But I will not say that. I believe you. Really. I promise. Let us analyze what this warg has done.

    As everyone can see, there are 4 Unarmed Attacks, which, if someone does not know, is how warg's auto-attack is called. And, as everyone with a warg can check, 1 auto-attack = 2 Unarmed Attacks on Combat Log, as same as 1 Ferocious Strikes skill = 3 Ferocious Strikes attacks on Combat Log. The same happens with Scratch and Snip, which is a 2 attacks skill too. And the same happens with Pounce. Lastly, that Shadow Fangs is just shadow damage type. It did not do any damage on you.
    Therefore, we should subtract 5 attacks from the total, resulting in 10 skills used (if auto-attack can be defined as a skill) within 2 seconds. Not 15. (But...wasn't there some kind of temporal paradox? No.)

    But that is not all. As it can be seen in any video which shows players macro'ing, there is no time for autoattacks between the skills. In this case, there are 2 autoattacks. (Shhh, that screenshot obvioulsy shows a player macroing, and he's macroing with auto-attack too!). Upon this, two questions arise:

    - If I were to macro, why would I include auto-attack on my macro rotation (if this is even possible)? [Hey! It's not even 200 damage per auto-attack! That indeed will help me kill my target in 2 seconds! (which is the goal of macroing: killing your target pretty fast)]

    - If I were to macro, why would I include Crippling Bite (non-damage skill which slows) on my macro rotation? [Hey! You really need to slow a target which will have no time at all to move because he will be killed in 2s!. That indeed will help me kill my target in 2 seconds! (which is the goal of macroing: killing your target pretty fast)] Ok, I am repeating myself.

    Fine.

    To sum it up, both you and the people that agreed with you could have done what I have done. Analyze the combat log. You just saw 15 hits almost in a row and panic'd, not taking into account that you could have lagged (maybe this also can explain why those 2 strange Flurry of Words "tic's" within 2 seconds). But no, that takes time. The time you'd rather spend on making false accusations and trolling.
    If you are to make an accusation publicly, the least you can do is to assure you are right. You're not just going against CoC, you (and the people that agreed with you) are making fools of themselves by showing (intentionally or not) a profound ignorance of one of the classes of the game you are playing. Hi.
    High Chieftain Zlaughter
    Commander Tarturin
    |MI6| - Evernight
    Original Challenger of Saruman | Original Challenger of Gothmog

  12. #3362
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    513
    Zitat Zitat von Zlaughter Beitrag anzeigen
    Is that your convincing proof that this warg has exploited? All right, let us analyze it.


    The number of attacks between the two Bombastic Inspiration "tic's" are 15. As you have said, it heals X amount of morale every 2 seconds. Good.
    So, in theory, everything that has happened between those two "tic's" must have been done within 2 seconds. Am I following you? I think so.

    Let us see what you have done within 2 seconds: Essence of Storm and Shocking Words. Is that all? No, it is not. Seemingly, there are 2 "tic's" of Flurry of Words. But, wait...



    What is this? Flurry of Words "tic's" happen every 3 seconds!....but how? How is that possible? Is this some kind of temporal paradox? How, within 2 seconds, can there be two Flurry of Words "tic's" that happen every 3s? Really strange.

    Some would say that the main premise in which you back up your accusation is not very...trustworthy.

    But I will not say that. I believe you. Really. I promise. Let us analyze what this warg has done.

    As everyone can see, there are 4 Unarmed Attacks, which, if someone does not know, is how warg's auto-attack is called. And, as everyone with a warg can check, 1 auto-attack = 2 Unarmed Attacks on Combat Log, as same as 1 Ferocious Strikes skill = 3 Ferocious Strikes attacks on Combat Log. The same happens with Scratch and Snip, which is a 2 attacks skill too. And the same happens with Pounce. Lastly, that Shadow Fangs is just shadow damage type. It did not do any damage on you.
    Therefore, we should subtract 5 attacks from the total, resulting in 10 skills used (if auto-attack can be defined as a skill) within 2 seconds. Not 15. (But...wasn't there some kind of temporal paradox? No.)

    But that is not all. As it can be seen in any video which shows players macro'ing, there is no time for autoattacks between the skills. In this case, there are 2 autoattacks. (Shhh, that screenshot obvioulsy shows a player macroing, and he's macroing with auto-attack too!). Upon this, two questions arise:

    - If I were to macro, why would I include auto-attack on my macro rotation (if this is even possible)? [Hey! It's not even 200 damage per auto-attack! That indeed will help me kill my target in 2 seconds! (which is the goal of macroing: killing your target pretty fast)]

    - If I were to macro, why would I include Crippling Bite (non-damage skill which slows) on my macro rotation? [Hey! You really need to slow a target which will have no time at all to move because he will be killed in 2s!. That indeed will help me kill my target in 2 seconds! (which is the goal of macroing: killing your target pretty fast)] Ok, I am repeating myself.

    Fine.

    To sum it up, both you and the people that agreed with you could have done what I have done. Analyze the combat log. You just saw 15 hits almost in a row and panic'd, not taking into account that you could have lagged (maybe this also can explain why those 2 strange Flurry of Words "tic's" within 2 seconds). But no, that takes time. The time you'd rather spend on making false accusations and trolling.
    If you are to make an accusation publicly, the least you can do is to assure you are right. You're not just going against CoC, you (and the people that agreed with you) are making fools of themselves by showing (intentionally or not) a profound ignorance of one of the classes of the game you are playing. Hi.

    Macro or Not people are just so paranoid now due to the over use of machine gunning in pvp, anything with duplicate attacks is been taken as a macro i.e the amount of qq burgs are getting for Cdg atm is a laugh ,made post purly to show just because a skill can show x2 x3 x4 dup hits in the comabat log etc etc does't mean its a macro ,back to the post above true or not Macros needs to be delt with before good honest players get tarnished with the same brush ,i.e the sever lag atm is insane stands to reason that the combat logs are out of sync who knows 8sec delays must cause some kind of log errors.

    kk m8 lmao lol rofl big kiss jag :P
    [IMG]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x22/thedoc1971/18d08621-0f10-47a0-a562-1f390494d615_zps2791e246.jpg[/IMG]

  13. #3363
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    Nanda Parbat
    Beiträge
    583
    What you've talking about CdG is an Xploit, like SotD on cappies. But I'm surprised, Pouch, burglars are the most macro abusers atm, same as most wargs, anyways is a failure from Scripting, which allows people to upload their Macros, yep, another funny thing is... where the hell ppl gets that things? I don't know, but macroing is a reality, I am not really sure about that screen, reasons (warg played): Pounce, can be located as key 1, is a critical from stealth that allows Rend Flesh (debuff) use on key 2, unarmed attack is really fast, but auto, so it does not count, Scratch & Snip is Double Attack, not 2 skills, and other skills are fast melee ones, cause no one needs animation, skills which can be spotted with animation are Flea Bitten, Eye Rake, Savage Fangs, Howls, but not the ones I've seen at that SS.So since you got Stunned you took 7 skills, if counting Swipe wich is out of yout tick, mean 6 in 2 seconds, all fast skills, try by yourself on a dummy, it's pretty doable.
    Yuzuriha GDN R10 (Retired @ 2012 ) - Farruquita BA R12 Leader of "Sauron Loves Spain" (Evernight - since the beginning)

  14. #3364
    Registriert seit
    03.06.2011
    Beiträge
    287
    Zitat Zitat von minnimeepouch Beitrag anzeigen
    i.e the sever lag atm is insane stands to reason that the combat logs are out of sync who knows 8sec delays must cause some kind of log errors.

    kk m8 lmao lol rofl big kiss jag :P


    is that a champ and mins macro? or just a dying hamster?
    rofl kk xD LoL m8 little kiss pouchie :P

    (if Garrafen pic is an exploit, Sapience's maggots would delete post because you can't publicity any exploit etc etc...)

  15. #3365
    Registriert seit
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge
    256
    I spared Hyando today and we had some wins and some losses. And i can assure that he was not macroing or something, if not i could be death in 2s, and it was not like this. I think we don't have to get consufe between be faster with the skills and macroing. If you are macroing as you can see in the video that valdez put in other post ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSH7r-vodcM. You will be death in 2 seconds. And also you will not have just 8 attacks in 3s you will have 15+ attacks at the same time becasue you are using all the skills together as you can see in the video. For other part when you are macroing you don't make any auto attack, and in the picture you can see 4 auto attacks. So in my opinion no one is macroing here.
    Aniquilador Captain General Champion
    [color=#DB7900]La Lista Negra[/color]
    [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU0sbAuaZCQ]ChampionPvMPvideos[/url]

  16. #3366
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    513
    Zitat Zitat von Hayley Beitrag anzeigen
    What you've talking about CdG is an Xploit, like SotD on cappies. But I'm surprised, Pouch, burglars are the most macro abusers atm, same as most wargs, anyways is a failure from Scripting, which allows people to upload their Macros, yep, another funny thing is... where the hell ppl gets that things? I don't know, but macroing is a reality, I am not really sure about that screen, reasons (warg played): Pounce, can be located as key 1, is a critical from stealth that allows Rend Flesh (debuff) use on key 2, unarmed attack is really fast, but auto, so it does not count, Scratch & Snip is Double Attack, not 2 skills, and other skills are fast melee ones, cause no one needs animation, skills which can be spotted with animation are Flea Bitten, Eye Rake, Savage Fangs, Howls, but not the ones I've seen at that SS.So since you got Stunned you took 7 skills, if counting Swipe wich is out of yout tick, mean 6 in 2 seconds, all fast skills, try by yourself on a dummy, it's pretty doable.
    Using Cdg is no exploit hayley using Cdg loaded into a machine gun is, let's clear this up using you skills what ever rotation you like is not an exploit, have a skills machine gun fire is, now let's say a burg starts with Cdg x3 attacks 1skill used then dust then stun then through an entire rotation, this is a lot of attacks without the target even breathing, most creeps understand this but for the few that just see a list of hits then accuse of been macro, not always the case, the ettens is a mess paranoid players looking for reasons why they died, macros are active within lotro. Tbh I never seen any evernight burger spin a macro there is just no need burgers are gods atm using ca is enough to waste a ceep from half health, now book us a room hayley.
    [IMG]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x22/thedoc1971/18d08621-0f10-47a0-a562-1f390494d615_zps2791e246.jpg[/IMG]

  17. #3367
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    513
    Zitat Zitat von Aniquilador Beitrag anzeigen
    I spared Hyando today and we had some wins and some losses. And i can assure that he was not macroing or something, if not i could be death in 2s, and it was not like this. I think we don't have to get consufe between be faster with the skills and macroing. If you are macroing as you can see in the video that valdez put in other post ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSH7r-vodcM. You will be death in 2 seconds. And also you will not have just 8 attacks in 3s you will have 15+ attacks at the same time becasue you are using all the skills together as you can see in the video. For other part when you are macroing you don't make any auto attack, and in the picture you can see 4 auto attacks. So in my opinion no one is macroing here.
    Clever macro players will set up there machine gun in camouflage, mix and match short burst thus hiding the logs cleverly, this is all getting out of hand Tbh its getting to the stage if you get a kill you get anylised ,the delay lag is definitely causing script errors, Imo the development are at fault the need to act and act fast, honest players are been tarnished sad days in pvp moors.
    [IMG]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x22/thedoc1971/18d08621-0f10-47a0-a562-1f390494d615_zps2791e246.jpg[/IMG]

  18. #3368
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    Finland
    Beiträge
    855
    If one macroes in purpose to kill someone fast, why would they do them in short bursts? Ain't it all or nothing?
    What i mean is that with -25% attack speed, warg is really fast "manually" and theres no need to make like 3-4 skill macros.

    today i tested on a dummy, can't use piercing claws but i did rougly 3 hits per second according to Combat analysis.
    Geändert von Faildget (12.01.2014 um 06:00 Uhr)


    The original Valdez

  19. #3369
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    513
    Zitat Zitat von Faildget Beitrag anzeigen
    If one macroes in purpose to kill someone fast, why would they do them in short bursts? Ain't it all or nothing?
    What i mean is that with -25% attack speed, warg is really fast "manually" and theres no need to make like 3-4 skill macros.

    today i tested on a dummy, can't use piercing claws but i did rougly 3 hits per second according to Combat analysis.
    100% agree i been on the dummy and also hit x amount of times in secs ,there is clever macro players though Val, now would you take £1000 out of a hacked bank account or just take £100 undetected same results just takes longer ,anyways we got to all start pushing for fixes imo, if and when the day comes these macro ezmoders will feel the hit the most
    [IMG]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x22/thedoc1971/18d08621-0f10-47a0-a562-1f390494d615_zps2791e246.jpg[/IMG]

  20. #3370
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    161
    Sapience was on Gilrain one or two days ago and in the livestream he said 12.2 will fix macro use. Someone on Morthond quoted it in the freep ooc.
    Can't find anything about it in the forums though.


    Evernight : Tanick R13 Lm ~ Wakkawakka R10 Def
    Morthond : Mandridar R9 Lm ~ Cragstone R9 Wvr

  21. #3371
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    12
    First of all,i didnt reported nobody,only posted a picture of what look strange to me.

    Zitat Zitat von Zlaughter Beitrag anzeigen
    Is that your convincing proof that this warg has exploited? All right, let us analyze it.


    The number of attacks between the two Bombastic Inspiration "tic's" are 15. As you have said, it heals X amount of morale every 2 seconds. Good.
    So, in theory, everything that has happened between those two "tic's" must have been done within 2 seconds. Am I following you? I think so.

    Let us see what you have done within 2 seconds: Essence of Storm and Shocking Words. Is that all? No, it is not. Seemingly, there are 2 "tic's" of Flurry of Words. But, wait...



    What is this? Flurry of Words "tic's" happen every 3 seconds!....but how? How is that possible? Is this some kind of temporal paradox? How, within 2 seconds, can there be two Flurry of Words "tic's" that happen every 3s? Really strange.

    Some would say that the main premise in which you back up your accusation is not very...trustworthy.
    When i read u i thought i was wrong,but now i think u are trolling,Flurry is each 3 secs,but u can see 1 in a warg and other in the other warg,so i only see 1 atack per warg.The 2 seconds is the time in wich happened,not a temporal paradox etc.

    Repeat,i didnt reported nobody,found something strange and posted to can solve if that was ok or not.

  22. #3372
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    Finland
    Beiträge
    855
    Zitat Zitat von -Tanyc- Beitrag anzeigen
    Sapience was on Gilrain one or two days ago and in the livestream he said 12.2 will fix macro use. Someone on Morthond quoted it in the freep ooc.
    Can't find anything about it in the forums though.

    That sounds good, i hope they release 12.2 fast. and with it, the constant lag!!


    The original Valdez

  23. #3373
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Ort
    Nanda Parbat
    Beiträge
    583
    Zitat Zitat von minnimeepouch Beitrag anzeigen
    Using Cdg is no exploit hayley using Cdg loaded into a machine gun is, let's clear this up using you skills what ever rotation you like is not an exploit, have a skills machine gun fire is, now let's say a burg starts with Cdg x3 attacks 1skill used then dust then stun then through an entire rotation, this is a lot of attacks without the target even breathing, most creeps understand this but for the few that just see a list of hits then accuse of been macro, not always the case, the ettens is a mess paranoid players looking for reasons why they died, macros are active within lotro. Tbh I never seen any evernight burger spin a macro there is just no need burgers are gods atm using ca is enough to waste a ceep from half health, now book us a room hayley.
    Think you missunderstand what I'm calling CdG Xploit, cause is not the 3 default attacks, is spamming 1m cd skill at once nd display 9 or 12 CdG hits on a single target, remember I got a burglar Pouchie
    Yuzuriha GDN R10 (Retired @ 2012 ) - Farruquita BA R12 Leader of "Sauron Loves Spain" (Evernight - since the beginning)

  24. #3374
    Registriert seit
    02.06.2011
    Beiträge
    513
    Zitat Zitat von Hayley Beitrag anzeigen
    Think you missunderstand what I'm calling CdG Xploit, cause is not the 3 default attacks, is spamming 1m cd skill at once nd display 9 or 12 CdG hits on a single target, remember I got a burglar Pouchie
    Thats the thing hayley creeps are blaming the x3 Cdg attacks and other multi burg attacks as a row of macros ,i can't repeat myself again ,i think we all know what a macro is and how it appers in the logs ,please educate the creep side about burg string attacks ,and stop certain creeps from reporting burgs for none macro multi attacks.

    The worlds gone crazy.......
    [IMG]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x22/thedoc1971/18d08621-0f10-47a0-a562-1f390494d615_zps2791e246.jpg[/IMG]

  25. #3375
    Registriert seit
    17.08.2013
    Beiträge
    75
    Snowy is rife with use of macros on warg atm and it has caused a lot of controversy, this is not the first time other players have accused this particular player of macros use. It is easy enough to camouflage macros use so as not to be an incessant machine gun record in combat log but still give a player an unfair advantage. The player concerned posted that a gm had warned him about macros use and told him to stop, he claimed the gm knew less about him than game mechanics. yeah right, a serious accusation. The gm had access to exploit programmes and info that obviously showed this player was using macros hence the warning to stop. if the gm is wrong in this case and the player right, then a gm etc should post and say there exploit software is faulty. Until they do, let's look at facts. A gm warned this player to stop using cheat macro exploits so unless a gm retracts that, as far as I am concerned he must have been using them. End of discussion really.

 

 
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